Graphics Explained?

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DragonH
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Graphics Explained?

Postby DragonH » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:09 pm

I'm not an expert on this, but i spent my last hour restarting and restarting each race just to see how it impacts the FPS in my races.
From post processing HIGH, to Medium, to Low etc
Eventhough idk what the hell means post processing? but hey, i bet there's someone who can explain that impact of each grapic option and in wich feature it impacts the most, for example:

TEXTURE QUALITY impacts more the GPU
Post Processing impacts more.......

And can you guys explain each other what means?

Post Processing is the particles flying and shining?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:35 am

DragonH wrote:I'm not an expert on this, but i spent my last hour restarting and restarting each race just to see how it impacts the FPS in my races.
From post processing HIGH, to Medium, to Low etc
Eventhough idk what the hell means post processing? but hey, i bet there's someone who can explain that impact of each grapic option and in wich feature it impacts the most, for example:

TEXTURE QUALITY impacts more the GPU
Post Processing impacts more.......

And can you guys explain each other what means?

Post Processing is the particles flying and shining?

Thanks in advance.

Moving this to Technical & Hardware

Also : google is your friend, i mean really
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_occlusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-processing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_filtering

Every option affects the GPU. The CPU is (I believe) not involved at all, except maybe for collision detection and technical stuff like this. But everything that is about rendering (which is all the options basically) are done by the GPU afaik.

As for how much one feature impacts the FPS in-race, you can do some trial. These settings are not only in Grip, they are in a lot of games too. Just for personal culture, it's useful to experiment by yourself.
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby Falkerz » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:02 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:
DragonH wrote:I'm not an expert on this, but i spent my last hour restarting and restarting each race just to see how it impacts the FPS in my races.
From post processing HIGH, to Medium, to Low etc
Eventhough idk what the hell means post processing? but hey, i bet there's someone who can explain that impact of each grapic option and in wich feature it impacts the most, for example:

TEXTURE QUALITY impacts more the GPU
Post Processing impacts more.......

And can you guys explain each other what means?

Post Processing is the particles flying and shining?

Thanks in advance.

Moving this to Technical & Hardware

Also : google is your friend, i mean really
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_occlusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-processing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_filtering

Every option affects the GPU. The CPU is (I believe) not involved at all, except maybe for collision detection and technical stuff like this. But everything that is about rendering (which is all the options basically) are done by the GPU afaik.

As for how much one feature impacts the FPS in-race, you can do some trial. These settings are not only in Grip, they are in a lot of games too. Just for personal culture, it's useful to experiment by yourself.


Bear with my ramblings here, I have half a point I sort of convey...

CPU will handle all calculations for AI movement, AI behaviour, weapon assignments, interactive track element triggers, music, other SFX, and maybe a couple of other bits. It also plays a role on parts of the Physics (typically handling particle density etc, but only so far as to tell the GPU "MAKE MESS MESSIER").

The GPU will handle all the rendering, if it's a card that also has built in PhysX support, it will handle all collisions via the PhysX co-processor on the GPU, which gives a fractionally smoother interaction between collisions being displayed and applied to entities (we're talking the time it takes for data to travel along the PCIe bus here). But pretty much all the GPU does is be told "DRAW THIS" and then it does. It's just that the CPU might say "DRAW THIS THE EASY WAY" and the GPU snorts derisively, and throws it up before it's even finished considering how easy that is. Then the CPU will say "APPLY ALL THE FILTERS FOR MAD VISUALS" and the GPU goes, "Dude, that's like, effort. Anyway, done now" and throws it on screen. Now compare that to a human. You think there's barely any difference between just thinking something and then saying something, and you're right. Cognitively, there's no real difference. However, a LOT more has to happen for you to articulate something, namely the moving of your facial muscles, your lips, your larynx needs to move and your vocal cords distorted, and all that after your brain has processed the neural reactions necessary to make those things happen.

I know it's a very long winded and seemingly off topic analogy, but it comes down to this:

All the extra filters and post processing things etc have one purpose. To refine the rendered image, to make it look as smooth and high fidelity as possible. The post processing typically refers to lighting and brightness adjustments done on the fly to even out levels between textures (if you've ever played Minecraft, think a much more low level version of smooth lighting).

Similarly, things like Ambient Occlusion and Anti-Aliasing are used for dynamic lighting patterns calculated with more accuracy, and vertex retouching specifically. It takes a bit of time to do, and doesn't appear to be much, but overall makes everything look that bit better, to increase your immersion.

Ever notice how a tiny fleck of black paint on a white wall stands out to you like a pink unicorn waltzing down the street? Similar thing here. It's all about making there be as little as possible for the difference engine that the human brain is to be distracted by, and to keep it focused solely on the game.

Feel free to criticise me for pulling all this out of my brain while listening to Sabaton and wishing that my coffee wasn't as cheap as it is. I haven't looked at this sort of stuff for a while.
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DragonH
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby DragonH » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:04 am

yup.....and potterman....since both of us got potatoes xD i think the devs should had a future option, i dont mean it now, to instead setting the SHADOWS to LOW, to turn them OFF, maybe we get +5-10 FPS with it

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:26 am

Falkerz wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:
DragonH wrote:I'm not an expert on this, but i spent my last hour restarting and restarting each race just to see how it impacts the FPS in my races.
From post processing HIGH, to Medium, to Low etc
Eventhough idk what the hell means post processing? but hey, i bet there's someone who can explain that impact of each grapic option and in wich feature it impacts the most, for example:

TEXTURE QUALITY impacts more the GPU
Post Processing impacts more.......

And can you guys explain each other what means?

Post Processing is the particles flying and shining?

Thanks in advance.

Moving this to Technical & Hardware

Also : google is your friend, i mean really
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_occlusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-processing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_filtering

Every option affects the GPU. The CPU is (I believe) not involved at all, except maybe for collision detection and technical stuff like this. But everything that is about rendering (which is all the options basically) are done by the GPU afaik.

As for how much one feature impacts the FPS in-race, you can do some trial. These settings are not only in Grip, they are in a lot of games too. Just for personal culture, it's useful to experiment by yourself.

CPU will handle all calculations for AI movement, AI behaviour, weapon assignments, interactive track element triggers, music, other SFX, and maybe a couple of other bits. It also plays a role on parts of the Physics (typically handling particle density etc, but only so far as to tell the GPU "MAKE MESS MESSIER").

The GPU will handle all the rendering, if it's a card that also has built in PhysX support, it will handle all collisions via the PhysX co-processor on the GPU, which gives a fractionally smoother interaction between collisions being displayed and applied to entities (we're talking the time it takes for data to travel along the PCIe bus here). But pretty much all the GPU does is be told "DRAW THIS" and then it does. It's just that the CPU might say "DRAW THIS THE EASY WAY" and the GPU snorts derisively, and throws it up before it's even finished considering how easy that is. Then the CPU will say "APPLY ALL THE FILTERS FOR MAD VISUALS" and the GPU goes, "Dude, that's like, effort. Anyway, done now" and throws it on screen. Now compare that to a human. You think there's barely any difference between just thinking something and then saying something, and you're right. Cognitively, there's no real difference. However, a LOT more has to happen for you to articulate something, namely the moving of your facial muscles, your lips, your larynx needs to move and your vocal cords distorted, and all that after your brain has processed the neural reactions necessary to make those things happen.

Very great post to be honest. You should have a blog of scientific vulgarization :p

DragonH wrote:yup.....and potterman....since both of us got potatoes xD i think the devs should had a future option, i dont mean it now, to instead setting the SHADOWS to LOW, to turn them OFF, maybe we get +5-10 FPS with it

Just post it in the Suggestions subforum
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:21 pm

Isn't the lowest option already without real time shadows?
I think only the pre-baked shadows are used on lowest setting, and the cost of these can really be ignored.
Also i know that in some other engines cascaded shadows are mostly handled by the CPU.

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby DragonH » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:03 pm

i'm not sure.....but even if they process less CPU, removig them would be even better

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:37 am

DragonH wrote:i'm not sure.....but even if they process less CPU, removig them would be even better

The bottleneck in a video game is the GPU, not the CPU (well, in most of them at least).
It won't improve your framerate if the shadows are handled by the CPU, since your CPU is not the cause of your lag.
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby DragonH » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:38 am

How am i suposed to figure that out? Is there any program i can use to benchmark my laptop during my gameplay and see the highest peaks of my computer componentes and see what is using the most?

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby TheOnLY » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:30 pm

Just monitor your CPU and GPU usage. The one that is running close to 100% load all the time (or at least most of it) is probably limiting your FPS. But since you are using an i5 with a GT 820 it is certainly your GPU.

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby Queadah » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:06 pm

DragonH wrote:Is there any program i can use to benchmark my laptop during my gameplay and see the highest peaks of my computer componentes and see what is using the most?

You can use http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html for CPU

edit: Actually to monitor everything at the same time, just go for Hardware monitor (http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html) 8-)

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby DragonH » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:52 pm

TheOnLY wrote:Just monitor your CPU and GPU usage. The one that is running close to 100% load all the time (or at least most of it) is probably limiting your FPS. But since you are using an i5 with a GT 820 it is certainly your GPU.


i got an i7 xD probleme is it is a dual core

P.S: i dont know how to use that CPU programe xD dem english language i don't understand some of the things xD

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:54 am

DragonH wrote:P.S: i dont know how to use that CPU programe xD dem english language i don't understand some of the things xD

Just take people's word for this. It's the GPU that is limiting you. I am yet to see a laptop that is bottlenecked by CPU rather than GPU when it comes to games (I ignore Macs).
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:47 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
DragonH wrote:P.S: i dont know how to use that CPU programe xD dem english language i don't understand some of the things xD

Just take people's word for this. It's the GPU that is limiting you. I am yet to see a laptop that is bottlenecked by CPU rather than GPU when it comes to games (I ignore Macs).


I'd argue with laptops it's more heat dissipation that's the bottleneck. Laptops get mad hot playing games (mine hits 75*C+ playing Grip) and their thermal throttling is usually much more aggressive than on a desktop computer since their cooling systems are more limited.

But yeah, I've run Grip on a Core2duo T9300 and a Geforce 8800GTX (a very old Dell XPS laptop). If I can run Grip on a core2duo, it's definitely not your i7 that's causing you problems :P
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby TheOnLY » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:17 pm

It is true that cooling is a limiting factor for notebooks, but not at that performance level. There are notebooks that can fit a Core i7 4790k and big ass graphics card and cool them without them throttling.
Keep in mind that manufacturers select the most efficient chips for use in mobile devices and use the less efficient ones for desktop applications as heat efficiency is not the main concern here.
Also CPUs and GPUs can easily take temperatures close to 100°C and they usually only throttle close to their max temperature. (my AMD CPU shuts off at 102°C and throttles at 100°C for example). If the CPU in current notebooks throttles it is either that the cooling system of the notebook is poorly engineered, the cooling system is dirty, the notebook is placed on surface it shouldn't be (like blankets) so it cant suck cold air in or the CPU/GPU exceeds its maximum power usage.

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:11 pm

KazzyMac wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:
DragonH wrote:P.S: i dont know how to use that CPU programe xD dem english language i don't understand some of the things xD

Just take people's word for this. It's the GPU that is limiting you. I am yet to see a laptop that is bottlenecked by CPU rather than GPU when it comes to games (I ignore Macs).


I'd argue with laptops it's more heat dissipation that's the bottleneck. Laptops get mad hot playing games (mine hits 75*C+ playing Grip) and their thermal throttling is usually much more aggressive than on a desktop computer since their cooling systems are more limited.

I agree with it. My computer struggles a lot more with Grip if I've used it heavily during the day (so basically, if it didn't have time to cool)
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby Django » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:48 pm

High Temperatures are a real problem with Notebooks. A few years ago i killed one. Only with playing Dawn of War II, it wasnt overclooked or anything.

Some of todays CPUs have a maximum tolerance of only 65°C, which is crazy compared to some older hardware.

Some people have reached 130°C without killing the CPU. But according to a friend of mine this was much more common 10 - 15 years ago because as the transistors become smaller and smaller over the years they became less heat resistant. In other words very tiny structures tend to be fragile.

But it seems i7 are relativly heat resistant.

But since its most likely the GPU thats caussing the problem ...

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby KazzyMac » Sun May 01, 2016 10:57 pm

Django wrote:Some of todays CPUs have a maximum tolerance of only 65°C, which is crazy compared to some older hardware.

I'm honestly not sure if those temperatures are even accurate (or if they're reading the temperature from something other than the temperature sensors that most software and the bios/uefi use to monitor it.

Best example; That page says the maximum operating temperature of a Phenom x4 is 70*C? My old Phenom would hit 95*C before the system would auto-shutdown to save itself. My i7 (Sandy Bridge-E) throttles at 85*C but that website says its critical temperature is 66.8*C? My laptop has hit 85*C running videogames before, too.

Maybe I'm just interpreting the information wrong?
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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby TheOnLY » Mon May 02, 2016 2:43 am

These sensors aren't accurate at all. Especially the AMD sensors become more inaccurate the lower the temperature is. And the temperatures used by that website are temperatures at the top (outside) of the heat spreader. But you usually use internal sensors to determine the CPU temperature, as there are no sensors outside. These temperatures inside the chip are obviously (much) higher.

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Re: Graphics Explained?

Postby Django » Mon May 02, 2016 6:17 am

TheOnLY wrote:And the temperatures used by that website are temperatures at the top (outside) of the heat spreader.


Ah ok. Now it makes a bit more sense.


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