Esports-compatible gamemode

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Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Diapolo10 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:32 pm

Let me just say that this suggestion is NOT intended for the Early Access!

Alright, so now that we got that out of the way...
Seeing as how GRIP requires a whole lot of skill especially once the online multiplayer kicks in, I'd be thrilled to see the game in some future esports tournaments. I have this vision of 8-12 cars, divided into two teams, racing against each other on (randomly?) selected tracks. The team members could switch their cars between each race, but customisation (other than skins) would not be available. Additionally, the following rules would be in effect:
  • Destructible vehicles
  • Friendly fire (disabled?)
  • Mirrored and reversed tracks (randomised for each race)
  • Fast engines
  • No pickup assist
  • Each race has 6/8 laps

The winning team would be declared by the first player crossing the finish line, or alternatively if one of the teams gets eliminated.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this! :3
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 pm

First of all, esport is not restricted to team games. Starcraft 2 esport is only 1v1 (sometimes they do 2v2 for fun, but it's only balanced for 1v1). GRIP esport could be team-based, or individual-based.

Destructible vehicles, friendly fire, catchup assist, number of laps.. All these paremeters would be chosen based on what is the most popular I guess. I think only the future will tell us what is the favourite setup of people :)

Fast engine seems like a must have for esports - it should be challenging enough

I'm not a fan of the randomization. It introduces a level of unfairness, where the team that wins is the one that got lucky (because it was their favourite map, or because the map was better suited to their vehicles). In an esport scale, I think a pick/ban system would be the best.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:46 am

Well, a lot of people think that the races have to always be in a tournament style or with teams... well, they don't. Ladders are the way to go. The top players at the end of a season can then compete in an official tournament. Can be done for both teams and solo. Also, teams can still compete even in a solo environment, simply boasting how many players of a given team got to the "finals" or their positions etc.

What's the point of destructible vehicles when pick-ups are disabled? Doesn't make sense at all. Given that this is a combat racer, the pickups should be allowed and destructible vehicles disabled. This will make it so that it's still a combat racer but people won't be just ganged on and destroyed early on just because they're "best".

Track randomization would probably not work, since the maps would most likely be chosen by the players themselves as the best balanced ones, usually those that don't cater particularly to any type of car. Not in a single day, but through a lot of hours spend on playing the game and coming to a consensus. In a competitive space you need to learn the environment you're playing it inside out, so track knowledge will be incredibly important. Therefore randomization will only do nothing more than "add to the mastery time" rather than actually making things... unknown. Like potty said, would come more down to luck at this point.

Number of laps is something that will have to be tested out. The longer the race is, the less random effect from pick-ups comes into play, as through time the chances equal themselves out. However too long of a race and it becomes... maybe not boring, but definitely tedious. My prediction would be something between 8-10 laps, based mainly on my own experience of getting the slightly tedious feeling on the 7-8th lap, but the competitive nature should keep that feeling away till those 10 laps.

Friendly fire? There are no teams in racing as there's only one winner :P

Naturally the High engine speed is a must, Wild if it ever comes out of the experimental phase :D

Lastly, it would be wise to get some foundation laid out for the esports mode while still in the Early Access state. That way the mode would literally have as much "uptime" as possible and quite likely get some "popularity" wave. Naturally the resources the Devs have are limited, so there's that.

potterman28wxcv wrote:catchup assist,

In a competitive environment, this is usually the most hated feature in all of existence. Competitive should be down to skill, therefore you pay for your mistakes, not ride on the catchup wave and due to the sheer speed of the catch up you overtake the guy that was driving very fast and didn't make a single mistake. That is the definition of unfair.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Queadah » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:31 am

This concept is a lot like relay races for runners. I think it's a very good idea in terms of team building gameplay and could be beneficial to GRIP in terms of game longevity.

Plus this could foster the build up of leagues and advertisement that comes with esports and pro gaming.

RC was about skills and a certain difficulty, it's only legitimate GRIP could end up in tournaments.

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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:31 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:catchup assist,

In a competitive environment, this is usually the most hated feature in all of existence. Competitive should be down to skill, therefore you pay for your mistakes, not ride on the catchup wave and due to the sheer speed of the catch up you overtake the guy that was driving very fast and didn't make a single mistake. That is the definition of unfair.

Catchup is here to make up for the obvious disadvantage one experiences when in the middle of the race.

In most of the racing competitions, usually, being in the middle of the races result in you going actually faster because of aerodynamics and dragging effects. In a combat racer like GRIP, it only brings disadvantage - you have a lot more chance to be hit.

With catchup disabled, racing would be a matter of who is the first to take the lead.. Unless the devs implement more serious leader-targetting pickups later on.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Queadah » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:50 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:With catchup disabled, racing would be a matter of who is the first to take the lead.. Unless the devs implement more serious leader-targetting pickups later on.

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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:38 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:In most of the racing competitions, usually, being in the middle of the races result in you going actually faster because of aerodynamics and dragging effects.

I think we live in alternate universe, because being mid-pack means you can't take proper lanes due to having to battle with other drivers aka overtaking maneuvers. Those put you out of the correct lanes and impact your performance in such a way, that before any aerodynamic tunnels will actually start taking effect you'll be already up to the next corner to which you'll be having worse lanes again, because you want to defend from a possible attack on your position. All of that means that majority of the time being mid-pack will slow you down regardless whether there are weapons or not.
I highly advise taking a look at the FailRace channel and his "Failrace vs Community" videos. You'll see just how "often" being in mid-pack results in being faster...

Also for dealing with people who "run away" as 1st are exactly what Assassin is supposed to be. Sure, it's still not being that good at it, but that's because it is WIP. On top of that... this is the competitive mode. You as a player have to be wary of the "runners" just as everyone else. So you don't concentrate on those near to you, but on the leader.

That's the whole point of competitive mode. Player skill. Not depending on artificial performance boost just so you can catch someone who proved to be faster and smarter about utilising the opportunity that have appeared for him.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Diapolo10 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:40 am

I'm seeing a lot of good suggestions here, and your points about randomised maps are good ones. While this thread is obviously way ahead of its time, it does make me happy that no one outright despised the idea in general.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:36 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Also for dealing with people who "run away" as 1st are exactly what Assassin is supposed to be. Sure, it's still not being that good at it, but that's because it is WIP. On top of that... this is the competitive mode. You as a player have to be wary of the "runners" just as everyone else. So you don't concentrate on those near to you, but on the leader.

That's the whole point of competitive mode. Player skill. Not depending on artificial performance boost just so you can catch someone who proved to be faster and smarter about utilising the opportunity that have appeared for him.

Considering you would not like catchup on speed.. What about catchup on the randomization of items ?

At some point, you can consider it to be unfair that those at the back of the pack have more EMPs than the others. So a "true competitive mode" would require an absolute uniform randomization (each pick-up getting the same chance of being picked), if I follow your reasoning.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:39 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:Considering you would not like catchup on speed.. What about catchup on the randomization of items ?

At some point, you can consider it to be unfair that those at the back of the pack have more EMPs than the others. So a "true competitive mode" would require an absolute uniform randomization (each pick-up getting the same chance of being picked), if I follow your reasoning.

I would actually prefer if EMP would be equal for all positions, given it's a very versatile pick-up that can be used both offensively and defensively (getting rid of missiles).

However due to the nature of some pick-ups, and how they impact the gameplay, those that have very specific role should be prioritised on positions. Assassin naturally comes to mind, so does Shield and mines. Assassin on 1st place is completely useless just as mines and shield are for the last position. Actually, I would say it makes it less random, so it's highly beneficial to a competitive environment.
You could compare the "pick up placement prioritisation" to the available item tree for a given class. Some classes can't have certain items that the others do, which is effectively what this mechanic in GRIP tries to do, just that the "classes" in GRIP are positions in the race.

What catch-up does to speed is artificially increase the cars performance, therefore adding a random value to the race, since your performance starts depending on your position in the race not just on how good you are. From completely not random it changes to random. The "pick up catchup" as you called it, effectively tries to reduce the random part of the game.

TL;DR;
- catchup to speed adds randomness to the cars performance
- pick up catchup reduces the randomness of the pick ups
- less random, more competitive friendly
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Polar » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:34 am

Diapolo10 wrote:
The winning team would be declared by the first player crossing the finish line, or alternatively if one of the teams gets eliminated.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this! :3


Here's my idea for the winning team situation in 2v2/3v3/4v4/5v5
Spoiler: show
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That's a picture after a race in Competitive Mario Kart (5v5 Fw vs. FR), that I used to play for a quite a few years now. Basic idea being, the team that gets the most amount points after a certain amount of races, wins!
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Broscar » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:34 am

Competitive... Mario Kart?

Well, simply put it wouldn't work.
Rollcage, WipEout, Mario Kart, GRIP are based on luck. Yes, you won't get far if you can't do perfect laps on Phantom in WipEout HD, but I've seen first-hand plenty of times how sometimes first place gets 3 boosts in a row and 2nd place gets 3 mines in a row.
Quake, CS:GO, Overwatch, Rocket League, LoL, Starcraft, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Tekken etc. don't have these purely random elements (or if they do, they don't heavily influence gameplay as much as in the racers mentioned above).

Despite that, we have to be realistic in what to cater development resources to and spending time/money on developing a proper esport enviroment for a small playerbase is wasteful, especially when a community-governed set of rules/guidelines would be just as effective (or perhaps even more effective).
If the game blows up like Rocket League did, it'll be worth investing in it, but until then, I'm gonna go with the typical 'Broscar respectfully disagrees, your a idiot, trump 4 presindent'.

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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:33 am

Broscar wrote:Competitive... Mario Kart?

Well, simply put it wouldn't work.
Rollcage, WipEout, Mario Kart, GRIP are based on luck. Yes, you won't get far if you can't do perfect laps on Phantom in WipEout HD, but I've seen first-hand plenty of times how sometimes first place gets 3 boosts in a row and 2nd place gets 3 mines in a row.
Quake, CS:GO, Overwatch, Rocket League, LoL, Starcraft, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Tekken etc. don't have these purely random elements (or if they do, they don't heavily influence gameplay as much as in the racers mentioned above).

My room mate did competitive Mario Kart, and there's not just luck, there's also driving skills (and basic item management).

In competitive Mario Kart, if you're not close to the optimal path when it comes to drifting, you stand absolutely no chance, and this is true regardless of any item you might get. I know because I already tried to beat my buddy, but I never was able to (maybe one day I will..).

Because of this, if you're not skilled enough, even if you were somehow first on a lucky day, you cannot be at the top in a consistent manner.

The luck element can be attenuated by doing several races. This is why in the Rollcage tournaments our brackets consist in leagues of 3/4 races each - if you want to be qualified, it's not enough to be first in one race. You have to keep a constant positionning.

Even in the games you cited (Quake, CS:Go, etc..) it's not purely skill-based - your mood of the day, the heat in your room, the speed of your internet connection.. Many things can alter your gameplay. Luck is just a term frowned upon because it's artificial, but there are a lot more lucky elements than we think.

However, if you're skilled enough, then in average you should win, which is the whole point of doing "Best of .." in tournaments.
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Tathendal » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:00 am

Potty has a good point, and one comparison that I would like to make is poker. Your hand in poker is totally random, but since it evens out when multiple rounds go on, it kind of removes the luck element.

Also if some powerups end up regarded as cheap/noob/OP/anything like this, simply the option to remove wanted powerups from the pool would do it.

Continuing the poker metaphor, it is always possible that you have the upper hand and 99 % to win before the last card is dealt (thinking about texas hold 'em). Still, there is that 1 % chance that your opponent gets the card to complete his hand and win you. I am thinking that this can be the case in GRIP also, last lap 2nd place powerup can be the critical leader missile or boost or whatever, but the chances are always on the more skillful player's side, and when doing multiple races (say, best out of 3, or best out of 5 or something) reduces the significance of luck.

I'd love to see some semi-serious tournaments in GRIP in the future, prizes could be for example some exclusive cosmetics or some small icon/medal next to your name to indicate a tournament victory/2nd/3rd place. These could be regular, for example one 'Championship' race every year, and maybe monthly races on top of that. This is of course my own speculation, but I would bet that these kind of things would significantly raise interest towards the game. To my surprise, not many games do this kind of thing considering it can't be THAT hard to implement/organize and how much commitment it would increase in players. Also, FUN FACTOR to get tight races.

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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:45 am

Tathendal wrote:I'd love to see some semi-serious tournaments in GRIP in the future, prizes could be for example some exclusive cosmetics or some small icon/medal next to your name to indicate a tournament victory/2nd/3rd place. These could be regular, for example one 'Championship' race every year, and maybe monthly races on top of that. This is of course my own speculation, but I would bet that these kind of things would significantly raise interest towards the game. To my surprise, not many games do this kind of thing considering it can't be THAT hard to implement/organize and how much commitment it would increase in players. Also, FUN FACTOR to get tight races.

You don't even need an in-game implementation to do that. You just need motivated people, that is all.

Just one thing that would be great though, is replay exportability, so that :
  • 1) You can verify the outcome of the different simultaneous races
  • 2) You can easily highlight the "key" moments in a post-race twitch stream

At the very least, in order to twitch / make youtube videos out of it, you would need a more advanced spectating mode (with player names, and be able to switch cameras and/or switch players).
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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Tathendal » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:28 am

All true what you said. However there is an ever so slight difference about what I meant though. I assume you are talking about purely community-lead and organized tournaments? They are super cool ofc and can carry a game really far, but can the devs use community organized events when the game launches as advertising the game for example, or does all critics who review the game take account the community events when reviewing the game?

This is used to market the game starting at launch, in advertising and trailers etc. There could be an option in the game's main menu "Competitive race" or similar (which also reminds you every time that there are these tournaments available when you are in the menu and possibly tells you the time when they are if you try to select it), which is active only when the race is on. The races are for example saturday or sunday evenings. If you want to participate, only thing you need to do is to fire up the game and click that menu item in the certain time window. Well this was just my imagination, but I hope that you get what I mean here. Many games have communities that organize events, but does people know about it enough that everybody finds it that are potentially interested, and those that find it, are they capable of committing to the community (often times on some level required) and do they have time/interest/possibility/etc to come to teamspeak, connect to discord or chat and generally participate in organizing of the whole thing on some level (especially if you haven't got accounts or the software already) etc all these kind of things. I guess a purely community-organized tournaments would do the same thing if they are organized well enough and advertised enough and the treshold to enter is low enough. I don't know if I am making any sense here with my thought-flow-blabbering but I guess my points are:

1)integrate the tournaments directly in the game so that they are as easy as possible to participate and remind people about it in-game so it doesn't become only "the elite's" or a separate community's thing
2)some kind of in-game prizes (important nowadays ;)
3)use these events in marketing and advertising the game starting at launch and to keep the playerbase interested&committed etc.

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Re: Esports-compatible gamemode

Postby Broscar » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:22 pm

Truth be told I never managed to get into Mario Kart, but the phenomenon was very noticeable in the top end of WipEout racing. We got to a certain point where skill didn't mean that much anymore when everyone could race perfect lines and do perfect barrel rolls, with the prime differentiating factor being who got the most turbo pickups.

Either way, my second arguments stands on it's own regardless of my opinion of competitive Mario Kart ;p


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