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I do not enjoy anymore (evolved to discussion with codemonkey about physics details) - GRIP Video Game Forum

I do not enjoy anymore (evolved to discussion with codemonkey about physics details)

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I do not enjoy anymore (evolved to discussion with codemonkey about physics details)

Postby PoLaRiTy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Hi,

I'm sorry to say this :
The more updates, the less I like playing because it becomes less controllable.

It makes me mad.

I feel the biggest problem is, you know, the physics.
I've read a note somewhere we should stop talking about this, but I will get back to it.

I think everytime you update the game, you make regressions around physx : You make a odd / weak steering waiting system, you add blocks everywhere, you change the terrain, you change the friction ... But you must first correct the physx, otherwise you will never end losing time doing regressions.

I don't think you don't do anything against that or you don't know how to correct this problem, but I've found something on the physx documentation that can open your eyes and help you a little bit : http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/conten ... anced.html

This is however a basic article that is still interesting : http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/art ... -cms-21418

I'm sorry if you feel I show disrespect, this is not my goal. Maybe you could be more transparent about the problems you have and the updates you make, so we, as testers, will be able to help you more efficiently, not only by telling you what is bad but also how you can correct - before adding anything.

Have a great day.

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Costa » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:40 pm

Im deeply sorry to hear about that. but this isnt a finished game, needs time to make a complete product. i am not a developer but i totally understand how much effort those guys are pushing in. Keep in mind:
- Theyre trying their best
- Community seems pretty decent
- A LOT of feedback they want
- You can be part of this project with your opinions

Feel free to decide to stay or leave, but i suggest maybe to keep an aye maybe in a few months

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:03 pm

I think I'm actually going to agree with this, partially at least. I think the vast majority of the updates have been improvements (and many of them considerable improvements at that), and I understand that the physics are the hardest to fix, but it almost seems like a lot of the updates you've made are merely stopgap measures to try to make the physics problems less noticeable.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate your efforts - please, please don't think that's what I'm saying, I absolutely adore Grip and everything you've done with it - but I really do think it'd be for the best for the team to buckle down and try to figure out the physics/clipping problems, and sooner rather than later. Even if this means a long gap in updates, personally, I think it'd be for the best.

That's just my two cents though, and I really don't know how feasible it is at this stage in development. It just seems to me, just thinking about it, that it'd be easier in the long run to take care of the game's core physics before making all the little QoL changes like additional content or drifting, especially since you can't know right now how the finalized physics engine will affect current content and mechanics.

EDIT: I guess the simple version of what I'm saying is "Physics are the biggest complaint people seem to have right now, and if you don't fix them now they could be a huge PITA to fix once more variables are in play."
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby PoLaRiTy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:27 pm


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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:23 am

Game Director

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:19 am

Yeah, that's what I was thinking would be the case. Like please, please don't take what I'm saying as "WORK ON THE F**KING PHYSICS GUYS," I was just trying to make a suggestion. I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.

You guys know I love the work you do. I didn't mean to come off as harsh. Sorry.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:40 am

Science WINS again!!!
Then they opened a portal to another dimension and kidnapping the locals.
The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
and then... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE :twisted:


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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby WROB3L » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:46 am



And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:58 am

If there's one person who is solely dedicated to physics, this would probably be close to completion. But like was mentioned before, there's only one guy that is responsible for all the coding.

So... we basically have to suck it up, give feedback on what we can so that it may help them fix the PhysX issues and also provide feedback on other stuff, like class balance, track flow, etc.

I'm happy that we see an actual development and improvement here. I know of a game which has been in development for over 2 years now and still hasn't left alpha and only got worse from what I heard. Here you have an epic game that gets better and better, even if the physics are still full of clipping issues and collisions with opponents or basically anything are the best way to screw you over.

Remember, patience is a virtue. Especially in the case of this game.

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:18 am

Rob
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:17 am


Check out the for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:35 am


TheOnLY
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:36 am

I think it would be better if people (at least me :D) would be more informed what exactly is causing the problem. And saying that "it is a PhysiX issue" is not really a satisfying answer. I find things like this less annoying if i know when i know the reason why they occur
Under what conditions does this happen?
What happens?
As far as i understand it, it is like this:

Is this correct?

Having high FPS (100+) pretty much removes this issue, but my graphics card can barely push 50 fps on lowest setting in WQHD and 30 on highest (AO and PP eat 5 FPS each).
A higher updaterate could fix it then? Maybe have the physics be updated independently and not once per frame?
I am pretty sure it isn't that easy though. :cry:

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:47 am

Science WINS again!!!
Then they opened a portal to another dimension and kidnapping the locals.
The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
and then... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE :twisted:


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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:58 am

To remove any doubt, the physics isn't finished and is not meant to be representative of final product - so take heart that we will take it as far as we possibly can. Most of the physics problems we have are related to collision response which is certainly the domain of PhysX, and very tricky to get right at the massive velocities involved in GRIP - try driving a real car at 500kph and see how far you get without the car disintegrating into a mass of wrecked body parts.

Also note, that as Chris mentioned, we are in discussions with Nvidia directly and we do indeed know what we're doing. That Epic have got right behind us and are very impressed with what we've achieved with their engine must say something here. We had to ditch Epic's vehicle physics, which in turn was based on PhysX's vehicle physics, because they were not up to the job of producing GRIP, which must also give an indication of how difficult that must have been. All the vehicle handling code is *our* vehicle handling code.

I'll be working on improvements to collision response with Nvidia over the coming weeks. I'll also be looking at finishing the implementation of different drive trains and tyre friction models too before the next build of the game is released. In general though, I should say in our defence, that the vast majority of people out there feel like we've made significant improvements over the months and Polarity's viewpoint is in the minority. This tells us that we must be doing something right and are making progress towards the end goal, but I'd be interested to hear any thoughtful, accurate, analytical feedback from anyone who thinks we may be heading in the wrong direction.

As a last note, do remember there will be different vehicle classes in the game when it's released, with a lot of different handling styles. This should, we hope, provide enough variety that will provide something for everyone, and no-one left feeling that they just can't get to grips with it (no pun intended).

- My apologies to wrob3l for misquoting him earlier.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:07 am


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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:19 am

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:27 am

Rob
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:52 am

English is an absolute clusterf*** of a language, it really is.

And like I said, I really, really appreciate your work. I mean, you see me here talking about how every patch is a step in the right direction, right? I'm nearing 50 hours of playtime in Grip (which I'm sure some of the other users here - particularly you devs - have far outstripped, but still), I wouldn't be there if I didn't like what you've done. Hell that might be part of the problem - I like it so much that I don't think the surface stuff needs polishing at the moment :P I mean honestly, I would have taken anything after 1.0.5 as "finalized" if you'd just decided to stop there and start focusing only on additional content. It just didn't occur to me that it wouldn't be feasible to get multiple people to focus on the one issue because of just how small the team is, and I'm sorry for failing to make that connection. No need to call me stupid. I am aware that coding is extremely difficult.

I've also been trying very hard not to mention clipping issues since you guys are constantly saying "We're working on it!" and it has been constantly getting better... until 1.0.9, where clipping errors are back with a vengeance. ~1.0.4-1.0.8 I'd usually only get one significant error every 3-4 laps, now it's not uncommon for me to get 2-3 major errors (car stuck half-way in the ground, getting kicked off wallrides are relativistic velocities, colliding with invisible gaps in walls, etc) per lap. I'd just come out of a nearly 90-minute run on Industrial in time trial and I was a bit frustrated that I'd only been able to run a handful of even half-decent laps, largely due to clipping issues. Again, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to imply you guys were being lazy or not working on the "real" issues.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:56 am



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