I do not enjoy anymore (evolved to discussion with codemonkey about physics details)

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I do not enjoy anymore (evolved to discussion with codemonkey about physics details)

Postby PoLaRiTy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Hi,

I'm sorry to say this :
The more updates, the less I like playing because it becomes less controllable.

It makes me mad.

I feel the biggest problem is, you know, the physics.
I've read a note somewhere we should stop talking about this, but I will get back to it.

I think everytime you update the game, you make regressions around physx : You make a odd / weak steering waiting system, you add blocks everywhere, you change the terrain, you change the friction ... But you must first correct the physx, otherwise you will never end losing time doing regressions.

I don't think you don't do anything against that or you don't know how to correct this problem, but I've found something on the physx documentation that can open your eyes and help you a little bit : http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/conten ... anced.html

This is however a basic article that is still interesting : http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/art ... -cms-21418

I'm sorry if you feel I show disrespect, this is not my goal. Maybe you could be more transparent about the problems you have and the updates you make, so we, as testers, will be able to help you more efficiently, not only by telling you what is bad but also how you can correct - before adding anything.

Have a great day.

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Costa » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:40 pm

Im deeply sorry to hear about that. but this isnt a finished game, needs time to make a complete product. i am not a developer but i totally understand how much effort those guys are pushing in. Keep in mind:
- Theyre trying their best
- Community seems pretty decent
- A LOT of feedback they want
- You can be part of this project with your opinions

Feel free to decide to stay or leave, but i suggest maybe to keep an aye maybe in a few months

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:03 pm

I think I'm actually going to agree with this, partially at least. I think the vast majority of the updates have been improvements (and many of them considerable improvements at that), and I understand that the physics are the hardest to fix, but it almost seems like a lot of the updates you've made are merely stopgap measures to try to make the physics problems less noticeable.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate your efforts - please, please don't think that's what I'm saying, I absolutely adore Grip and everything you've done with it - but I really do think it'd be for the best for the team to buckle down and try to figure out the physics/clipping problems, and sooner rather than later. Even if this means a long gap in updates, personally, I think it'd be for the best.

That's just my two cents though, and I really don't know how feasible it is at this stage in development. It just seems to me, just thinking about it, that it'd be easier in the long run to take care of the game's core physics before making all the little QoL changes like additional content or drifting, especially since you can't know right now how the finalized physics engine will affect current content and mechanics.

EDIT: I guess the simple version of what I'm saying is "Physics are the biggest complaint people seem to have right now, and if you don't fix them now they could be a huge PITA to fix once more variables are in play."
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby PoLaRiTy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Costa wrote:Im deeply sorry to hear about that. but this isnt a finished game, needs time to make a complete product. i am not a developer but i totally understand how much effort those guys are pushing in. Keep in mind:
- Theyre trying their best
- Community seems pretty decent
- A LOT of feedback they want
- You can be part of this project with your opinions

Feel free to decide to stay or leave, but i suggest maybe to keep an aye maybe in a few months


This is something I already know, but it's hard to know how much effort they put in though, and the goal here is to help them make less efforts : I think if they continue to add things they will choke.
Note that I'm not leaving at all. This project will be perfect very soon, I'm sure of that.

The post of wantfastcars explains better what I try to say, thanks.

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:23 am

The issue here is time and resources.

Being a small team with a small budget, we have one coder who works on physics, and that's Rob. He also happens to do a ton of other stuff apart from physics that takes up his time. Basically, there would be very little game to play if Rob hadn't been working his ass off coding a plethora of stuff. So not only is he working on improving the physics right now, he's doing other stuff that makes this game as playable as it is.

We know about CCD. Currently, turning that on makes the physics much worse. Rob is talking to, and has been talking to Nvidia for while now about physics. He's on top of it.

As for me, I go into the maps and make them as smooth and flowing a drive as possible, because regardless of what we do with the physics, the tracks need that work done to them to improve gameplay. So it's not like I'm wasting my time doing these things. And it's not like I can drop track design and other duties to go work on physics.

There are a ton of things that factor in to creating our priorities. Physics are very high up on the list, but so is having a product that is worth presenting, so we can sell it and actually have money to finish this thing. It's not as black and white as you think.

PoLaRiTy wrote:I don't think you don't do anything against that or you don't know how to correct this problem, but I've found something on the physx documentation that can open your eyes and help you a little bit : http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/conten ... anced.html

This is however a basic article that is still interesting : http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/art ... -cms-21418

I know you're trying to help, but we are wayyyy beyond the point where we need this kind of information. Rob is not an amateur when it comes to coding physics.

Trust me when I say that no one wants the physics issues fixed more than we do. You just need to be a little patient with us, please.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:19 am

Yeah, that's what I was thinking would be the case. Like please, please don't take what I'm saying as "WORK ON THE F**KING PHYSICS GUYS," I was just trying to make a suggestion. I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.

You guys know I love the work you do. I didn't mean to come off as harsh. Sorry.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:40 am

Chris_CE wrote:The issue here is time and resources.

Being a small team with a small budget, we have one coder who works on physics, and that's Rob. He also happens to do a ton of other stuff apart from physics that takes up his time. Basically, there would be very little game to play if Rob hadn't been working his ass off coding a plethora of stuff. So not only is he working on improving the physics right now, he's doing other stuff that makes this game as playable as it is.

You just need to be a little patient with us, please.


wantfastcars wrote: I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.


This is really sad, some people don't realise how small the team is (and the resources), they think the dev team not focusing on the problem and just ignoring it or work around it, but the big problem whit this kind of people is they forget about the fact the dev team (any kind) are human beings whit there limit (not just physical).
I know some people try offer there help to the team like helping Rob whit the physics, but when they see what Rob is doing they gone freeze in place whit there jaws drop to the ground.
I'm not the guy who can easily get upset, but sometimes mind is on the ceiling for this kind of stupidity what I mentioned.
If you want to support them have some patient (it's not luxury and there is no tax for it) and put a little faith in them OK.

Chris_CE wrote:Rob is not and amateur when it comes to coding physics.


I know your English is not your primary language (not mine to) :geek: but it's "not an amateur" and not "not and amateur" before somebody get confused or upset (god damn British master race)
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby WROB3L » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:46 am

You just have to wait a lil bit more, or you could also wait for the finished game. Caged Element is a really REALLY small team, like 7 or 8 people are working on GRIP. Everything is going to be better, they need some time bruh.

wantfastcars wrote:I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.


but still, let`s not forget that Rob is a goddamn badass in everything that he does! He will handle this, believe me. Damn he updated the first rollcage after 16 years, sooo yeah he knows what he`s doing.

You just have to wait.
Give them some time, no pressure.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:58 am

If there's one person who is solely dedicated to physics, this would probably be close to completion. But like was mentioned before, there's only one guy that is responsible for all the coding.

So... we basically have to suck it up, give feedback on what we can so that it may help them fix the PhysX issues and also provide feedback on other stuff, like class balance, track flow, etc.

I'm happy that we see an actual development and improvement here. I know of a game which has been in development for over 2 years now and still hasn't left alpha and only got worse from what I heard. Here you have an epic game that gets better and better, even if the physics are still full of clipping issues and collisions with opponents or basically anything are the best way to screw you over.

Remember, patience is a virtue. Especially in the case of this game.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:18 am

PoLaRiTy wrote:Hi,
I think everytime you update the game, you make regressions around physx : You make a odd / weak steering waiting system, you add blocks everywhere, you change the terrain, you change the friction ... But you must first correct the physx, otherwise you will never end losing time doing regressions.

Very little of this is actually true Polarity. We are very, very careful about the changes we make to physics because to get to where we already are has taken a lot of hard work which we don't want to undo.

The steering changes we did recently simply gave you the *option* of using a different response curve, you don't have to use it but most people found less sensitive steering easier to drive when using a controller.

We haven't changed friction in a very long time, probably not this year even, and we only recently gave you the feeling that you're drifting without actually losing friction or control because we know the game is hard enough at these speeds already. This wasn't easy, and was designed to make the car behave more convincingly without actually making it more difficult to drive which genuine drifting would have done.

Chris's changes to the tracks have mostly been in pursuit of improving the driving experience, not diminishing it.

So in short, I in particular, am quite confused about your assertions.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:17 am

codemonkey wrote:
PoLaRiTy wrote:Hi,
I think everytime you update the game, you make regressions around physx : You make a odd / weak steering waiting system, you add blocks everywhere, you change the terrain, you change the friction ... But you must first correct the physx, otherwise you will never end losing time doing regressions.

Very little of this is actually true wrob3l. We are very, very careful about the changes we make to physics because to get to where we already are has taken a lot of hard work which we don't want to undo.

It's PoLaRiTy, not wrob3l :p

codemonkey wrote:So in short, I in particular, am quite confused about your assertions.

For anyone who has closely followed Grip development and the problems you've been facing, we know that you're doing a really great job (and I can't stress it enough) considering the resources you have.

However, some EA games out there (I won't cite any, but there are sufficiently enough of them) really give the impression to be done by a bunch of amateurs messing around. This participates to have an atmosphere where people tend to make the assumption "EA game = amateur work with almost no experience in making games".

With that in mind, if you're playing Grip, if you don't know the dev team enough, and if you are within this doubtful atmosphere for EA games, basically you will ask yourself the question "Are they really tackling up the physics, or are they just rubber patching the game until it becomes playable ?". Which is absolutely understandable : if you don't know the exact problems the devs are facing, you have absolutely no way to be sure they are doing what is right to do, so you gotta trust them.

Some games out there have a kind of "dev blog" where the devs basically post about the various issues they've been facing, in more details than just "this feature is not working properly". While this would be a nice addition to have, it takes a non negligible amount of time to set up and write..

By reading the forum, you can already get a small approximation of what could be a dev blog. A lot of codemonkey's posts are quite technical and detailed enough. But it's just scattered all around the forum(s) instead of being in a single place, which makes it hard for an outsider to know what is going on exactly under the hood.

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:
wantfastcars wrote: I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.


This is really sad, some people don't realise how small the team is (and the resources), they think the dev team not focusing on the problem and just ignoring it or work around it, but the big problem whit this kind of people is they forget about the fact the dev team (any kind) are human beings whit there limit (not just physical).
I know some people try offer there help to the team like helping Rob whit the physics, but when they see what Rob is doing they gone freeze in place whit there jaws drop to the ground.
I'm not the guy who can easily get upset, but sometimes mind is on the ceiling for this kind of stupidity what I mentioned.

Please remember that this is a place of discussion, not blaming or calling someone stupid.
Especially when the posts are detailed - there must be a reason why they posted that, and that reason cannot be just stupidity.

wantfastcars and Polarity are the only one who expressed themselves on that, but there might be more people feeling the same.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:35 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:By reading the forum, you can already get a small approximation of what could be a dev blog. A lot of codemonkey's posts are quite technical and detailed enough. But it's just scattered all around the forum(s) instead of being in a single place, which makes it hard for an outsider to know what is going on exactly under the hood.

Sounds like a great idea for a thread. Just saying :P
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:36 am

I think it would be better if people (at least me :D) would be more informed what exactly is causing the problem. And saying that "it is a PhysiX issue" is not really a satisfying answer. I find things like this less annoying if i know when i know the reason why they occur
Under what conditions does this happen?
What happens?
As far as i understand it, it is like this:
Spoiler: show
The cars body sometimes touches/intersects with other meshes or terrain when force is applied towards it. This causes the car to be reflected away from it (into the air) or causes the car to stop dead.
This can happen because the car moves to far in between the time its position is updated, so it moves into the object.

Is this correct?

Having high FPS (100+) pretty much removes this issue, but my graphics card can barely push 50 fps on lowest setting in WQHD and 30 on highest (AO and PP eat 5 FPS each).
A higher updaterate could fix it then? Maybe have the physics be updated independently and not once per frame?
I am pretty sure it isn't that easy though. :cry:

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:47 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:
wantfastcars wrote: I don't think I realized just how small your team is, and that Rob is literally the only one (capable of?) working on the physics engine.


This is really sad, some people don't realise how small the team is (and the resources), they think the dev team not focusing on the problem and just ignoring it or work around it, but the big problem whit this kind of people is they forget about the fact the dev team (any kind) are human beings whit there limit (not just physical).
I know some people try offer there help to the team like helping Rob whit the physics, but when they see what Rob is doing they gone freeze in place whit there jaws drop to the ground.
I'm not the guy who can easily get upset, but sometimes mind is on the ceiling for this kind of stupidity what I mentioned.

Please remember that this is a place of discussion, not blaming or calling someone stupid.
Especially when the posts are detailed - there must be a reason why they posted that, and that reason cannot be just stupidity.

wantfastcars and Polarity are the only one who expressed themselves on that, but there might be more people feeling the same.


Sorry :oops:

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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:58 am

To remove any doubt, the physics isn't finished and is not meant to be representative of final product - so take heart that we will take it as far as we possibly can. Most of the physics problems we have are related to collision response which is certainly the domain of PhysX, and very tricky to get right at the massive velocities involved in GRIP - try driving a real car at 500kph and see how far you get without the car disintegrating into a mass of wrecked body parts.

Also note, that as Chris mentioned, we are in discussions with Nvidia directly and we do indeed know what we're doing. That Epic have got right behind us and are very impressed with what we've achieved with their engine must say something here. We had to ditch Epic's vehicle physics, which in turn was based on PhysX's vehicle physics, because they were not up to the job of producing GRIP, which must also give an indication of how difficult that must have been. All the vehicle handling code is *our* vehicle handling code.

I'll be working on improvements to collision response with Nvidia over the coming weeks. I'll also be looking at finishing the implementation of different drive trains and tyre friction models too before the next build of the game is released. In general though, I should say in our defence, that the vast majority of people out there feel like we've made significant improvements over the months and Polarity's viewpoint is in the minority. This tells us that we must be doing something right and are making progress towards the end goal, but I'd be interested to hear any thoughtful, accurate, analytical feedback from anyone who thinks we may be heading in the wrong direction.

As a last note, do remember there will be different vehicle classes in the game when it's released, with a lot of different handling styles. This should, we hope, provide enough variety that will provide something for everyone, and no-one left feeling that they just can't get to grips with it (no pun intended).

- My apologies to wrob3l for misquoting him earlier.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:07 am

codemonkey wrote:That Epic has our back and are very impressed with what we've achieved with their engine must say something here.

The inner grammar nazi inside me awoken. I feel that this is what you meant, right?
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:19 am

TheOnLY wrote:I think it would be better if people (at least me :D) would be more informed what exactly is causing the problem. And saying that "it is a PhysiX issue" is not really a satisfying answer. I find things like this less annoying if i know when i know the reason why they occur
Under what conditions does this happen?
What happens?
As far as i understand it, it is like this:
Spoiler: show
The cars body sometimes touches/intersects with other meshes or terrain when force is applied towards it. This causes the car to be reflected away from it (into the air) or causes the car to stop dead.
This can happen because the car moves to far in between the time its position is updated, so it moves into the object.

Is this correct?

Having high FPS (100+) pretty much removes this issue, but my graphics card can barely push 50 fps on lowest setting in WQHD and 30 on highest (AO and PP eat 5 FPS each).
A higher updaterate could fix it then? Maybe have the physics be updated independently and not once per frame?
I am pretty sure it isn't that easy though. :cry:

Hi TheOnly, there are two major(ish) problems as I see it right now.

1. We haven't used CCD until now because it brought more problems than it solved. However, without CCD, we occasionally get deep penetrations into track geometry which PhysX then corrects by kicking your vehicle the hell out (clipping issues I believe people are referring to them as). This really isn't very good of course, but it normally only happens once per lap at worst (in my experience) so we haven't treated it as a high priority until now. However, I'm talking with Nvidia at this moment to try and find a solution to this problem - introducing CCD without introducing its associated problems. I have the ear of their best guys on this.

2. Hitting a piece of terrain and going orbital. This of course is because when you thrust a piece of indestructible metal at an equally indestructible piece of angular rock at 500kph then of course, you're going to fly. I'm also talking to Nvidia about how to prevent / mitigate this unwanted behaviour which will involve changes to our custom version of the Unreal Engine and not something regular users of UE would be able to attempt.

I'm very surprised that having a high FPS removes any of these issues for you, as the physics is always ticked to 60Hz nomatter what your rendering frame rate is doing. But who knows? PhysX isn't always logical. Increasing that internal physics tick rate would help to some degree, but wouldn't fix the problems we're seeing entirely. It would also degrade your frame massively whenever buildings get destroyed (we already tried this).

So let me reassure you boys again, we're onto this. Worry not. You should see my todo list, it stretches all the way out to Mars. I'm back on this particular task again now though, so expect goodness in the coming weeks.
Rob
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby codemonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:27 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
codemonkey wrote:That Epic has our back and are very impressed with what we've achieved with their engine must say something here.

The inner grammar nazi inside me awoken. I feel that this is what you meant, right?

I think are instead of am may be more commonly used, but both are correct in this particular case. I am natively English by the way, and not at all defending this shittily constructed language that we've foisted upon the world.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby wantfastcars » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:52 am

English is an absolute clusterf*** of a language, it really is.

And like I said, I really, really appreciate your work. I mean, you see me here talking about how every patch is a step in the right direction, right? I'm nearing 50 hours of playtime in Grip (which I'm sure some of the other users here - particularly you devs - have far outstripped, but still), I wouldn't be there if I didn't like what you've done. Hell that might be part of the problem - I like it so much that I don't think the surface stuff needs polishing at the moment :P I mean honestly, I would have taken anything after 1.0.5 as "finalized" if you'd just decided to stop there and start focusing only on additional content. It just didn't occur to me that it wouldn't be feasible to get multiple people to focus on the one issue because of just how small the team is, and I'm sorry for failing to make that connection. No need to call me stupid. I am aware that coding is extremely difficult.

I've also been trying very hard not to mention clipping issues since you guys are constantly saying "We're working on it!" and it has been constantly getting better... until 1.0.9, where clipping errors are back with a vengeance. ~1.0.4-1.0.8 I'd usually only get one significant error every 3-4 laps, now it's not uncommon for me to get 2-3 major errors (car stuck half-way in the ground, getting kicked off wallrides are relativistic velocities, colliding with invisible gaps in walls, etc) per lap. I'd just come out of a nearly 90-minute run on Industrial in time trial and I was a bit frustrated that I'd only been able to run a handful of even half-decent laps, largely due to clipping issues. Again, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to imply you guys were being lazy or not working on the "real" issues.
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Re: I do not enjoy anymore

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:56 am

codemonkey wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:
codemonkey wrote:That Epic has our back and are very impressed with what we've achieved with their engine, must say something here.

The inner grammar nazi inside me awoken. I feel that this is what you meant, right?

I think are instead of am may be more commonly used, but both are correct in this particular case. I am natively English by the way, and not at all defending this shittily constructed language that we've foisted upon the world.

Shouldn't "am" be used only in connotation to yourself? Unless this is a part of some older English which isn't really taught and seen anywhere nowadays.
In any case, I'm always happy to learn something new about English.
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