Anti-cheat

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Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue May 10, 2016 8:38 am

This is a topic that every single PC game has to go through, let's be honest. There will always be that kid who just can't bear to lose and will download some trainer or other stuff and go and ruin the multiplayer experience for everyone else.

My question is simple. Are there any plans on providing an actual anti-cheat solutions to the game?

And please spare me the "we won't tell what we're doing to not help hackers" line. I've heard it too many times in games where quite literally nothing was done about it.
I'm asking this since it haven't been brought up but with multiplayer being closer than further according to the latest news, this has to be talked about. A 3rd-party solution would be the best for the work time, but not that nice on the funds. Self developed will be nice on the funds but less on work time and possibly trust with the community, since we can't tell if it's there or not, if you're working on it or not or if you're actually doing something about it or not. Just removing the times and banning the blatant cheaters is not enough, where a small passive boost to performance is enough for the skilled people to win everything.

It's in best interest to the Devs to make sure that there won't be any distrust in the community which can create a highly toxic situation. I think everyone here been there and no one wants this to be the case here as well.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Queadah » Tue May 10, 2016 2:48 pm

I had a few aim bots and macros ready. Guess I'll just ditch them X)

On a serious note: good to bring that to the table

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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Tue May 10, 2016 4:02 pm

I really think they should not think too big and not have servers to find opponents, avoid the e-sports thing and just do a multiplayer mode that you can play with friends and have fun!

So that way if there is no board to tell who is the best of the best there is no reason to get angry if you lose to a filthy cheater. You can ALT+F4 and deal with it better :)

So in the end you block/avoid cheaters in your next race, find a lot of decent ppl, schedule a day and time and just have fun in an locked room!

When the game is finished and they get rich they can always update the game for a better online mode or make GRIP 2 :)
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue May 10, 2016 4:51 pm

HikikomoriGamer wrote:So in the end you block/avoid cheaters in your next race, find a lot of decent ppl, schedule a day and time and just have fun in an locked room!

And that's how you destroy multiplayer. By forcing people to play in locked rooms = forcing them to have to already know people to play with before even trying multiplayer.

Yes, the "play with friends" argument is good just as long as the GRIP player actually has any friend/people to play with.

If he doesn't, he will be glad there is a matchmaking system, or at least unlocked rooms without cheaters.

Though, it's true that getting a solid anti-cheating protection is hard. I guess a report system would be easier (as long as the playerbase stays relatively manageable).

We could imagine a system where if someguy gets reported several times, then the replay of his races get automatically uploaded to some server, where some other people can verify it, and then possibly ban the guy.

However, I don't think it's really a short-term priority. I mean, they already have a damn lot of work on their hand. I would prefer them to really focus on actual multiplayer and physics, and only then try to implement an anti-cheat system. But in the mid-long-run, yes I think it's important to have something like that in the game
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue May 10, 2016 4:57 pm

HikikomoriGamer wrote:and just do a multiplayer mode that you can play with friends and have fun!

That's known as split-screen. It's already implemented in.

potterman exhausted the point here nicely. The main thing about multiplayer is that you can play against people you don't know. And truth be told, I don't care about leaderboards. I would say the game would be much better without those. Ladders and normal multiplayer lobbies where you can set some rules (pickups, damage, etc.) are the best for a racing game. But to make this work... yep, you need that anti-cheat to make the experience proper and not have any distrust within the community. Because if you don't, at the end of the day you know that only you don't cheat, everyone else can be a cheater. That is a sure-fire way to destroy a community.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Tue May 10, 2016 5:51 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
HikikomoriGamer wrote:and just do a multiplayer mode that you can play with friends and have fun!

That's known as split-screen. It's already implemented in.

potterman exhausted the point here nicely. The main thing about multiplayer is that you can play against people you don't know. And truth be told, I don't care about leaderboards. I would say the game would be much better without those. Ladders and normal multiplayer lobbies where you can set some rules (pickups, damage, etc.) are the best for a racing game. But to make this work... yep, you need that anti-cheat to make the experience proper and not have any distrust within the community. Because if you don't, at the end of the day you know that only you don't cheat, everyone else can be a cheater. That is a sure-fire way to destroy a community.


I mean online friends! That thing that potty do in his Steam Rollcage group you know. I never touch split-screen mode in games :(

And yes I kind of was expecting someone to say the bad points in my argument so thanks potty :) there is a lot of bad things that will happen but I still think that a simple multiplayer mode is better cause the devs will never win against the cheaters! I would be glad to be proved wrong but I will remain pessimistic for now. Good matching system that match you with cheaters = you play in locked rooms only with ppl you know anyway! and as a bonus the game gets bad rep

In the end in my opinion and I can be wrong: Since the game is supposed to be difficult and all that stuff lot's of kids will cheat like hell I'm sure of it! ppl flying, invisible, using weapons focused in just one poor guy like crazy till his computer freezes or something. If devs make a really good matchmaking system and all you find is this bullshit this will destroy the multiplayer mode anyway and all the devs hard work will be for nothing that's why I say it's better to leave things simple at least for now!

It will even get worse cause some game sites can make a article about how cheaters do what they want in indie games and include GRIP in the article :( I prefer to read that the game has a little player base than read that the game is plagued by cheaters and devs do nothing about it as a last decision to buy a game!

A matchmaking that match me with hackers sucks and will destroy multiplayer for me and I will only use the LAN mode and ask potty and some of you guys here to kick my ass in a race or two :)
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue May 10, 2016 6:14 pm

HikikomoriGamer wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:
HikikomoriGamer wrote:and just do a multiplayer mode that you can play with friends and have fun!

That's known as split-screen. It's already implemented in.

potterman exhausted the point here nicely. The main thing about multiplayer is that you can play against people you don't know. And truth be told, I don't care about leaderboards. I would say the game would be much better without those. Ladders and normal multiplayer lobbies where you can set some rules (pickups, damage, etc.) are the best for a racing game. But to make this work... yep, you need that anti-cheat to make the experience proper and not have any distrust within the community. Because if you don't, at the end of the day you know that only you don't cheat, everyone else can be a cheater. That is a sure-fire way to destroy a community.


I mean online friends! That thing that potty do in his Steam Rollcage group you know. I never touch split-screen mode in games :(

And yes I kind of was expecting someone to say the bad points in my argument so thanks potty :) there is a lot of bad things that will happen but I still think that a simple multiplayer mode is better cause the devs will never win against the cheaters! I would be glad to be proved wrong but I will remain pessimistic for now.

It's a never-ending fight, that's true. But saying "give up" and completely get rid of the multiplayer mode is worse IMO. And that's basically what you're asking. Furthermore, just because you'll be racing against "online friends" doesn't mean they won't be cheating. So your suggestion is not only negating any form of multiplayer experience, it also doesn't prevent the mistrust within community. Game with a small player-base being plagued by cheaters is as bad, if not worse, than a game with huge player-base being also plagued by cheaters.

At the end of the day, this game is meant to sell. Anti-cheat is an investment then. There are 3rd party solutions out there already as well. But if this won't be tackled, then you might as well just say goodbye to the entirety of multiplayer.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Mik1 » Wed May 11, 2016 1:41 am

GRIP doesnt seem like a game that would attract a lot of hackers for me being a less known racing game than triple A shooter, but i dont know, maybe being able to cheat easier would bring more cheaters.

My only experience with hackers is pretty much team fortress 2 where they are blatantly hacking while spamming "get good get lmaobox" in chat. Almost all of the hackers ive seen there dont know how to play the game itself, im not talking about basics but when i look at their movement and placement on the map i can tell they are not so good they could hit all those headshots legit.
I like to give people a benefit of a doubt even if it looks really fishy that a sniper with no cosmetics on gets so many headshots in a short time. Some pros dont use any cosmetics to not attract so much attention.

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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed May 11, 2016 4:21 am

HikikomoriGamer wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:
HikikomoriGamer wrote:and just do a multiplayer mode that you can play with friends and have fun!

That's known as split-screen. It's already implemented in.

potterman exhausted the point here nicely. The main thing about multiplayer is that you can play against people you don't know. And truth be told, I don't care about leaderboards. I would say the game would be much better without those. Ladders and normal multiplayer lobbies where you can set some rules (pickups, damage, etc.) are the best for a racing game. But to make this work... yep, you need that anti-cheat to make the experience proper and not have any distrust within the community. Because if you don't, at the end of the day you know that only you don't cheat, everyone else can be a cheater. That is a sure-fire way to destroy a community.


I mean online friends! That thing that potty do in his Steam Rollcage group you know. I never touch split-screen mode in games :(

I also meant online friends. Or more precisely, dudes you know you can play Grip with. When you're a newcomer, you've got to start somewhere.

I guess once Grip multiplayer gets here, there might be special time schedules to gather people, but that is just not enough. I mean, ideally, you just want to fire the game, hit a button, and tadam in 30 sec max you're matched with people. The casual gamer doesn't want to follow a particular time schedule to play multiplayer.

So yes, locked rooms would definitely destroy multiplayer.

To what Ryu said, I will also add that there are more than one people in Grip - meaning they can focus on several tasks at once.
It's not like the development will stop for two weeks just because they develop an anti-cheat system.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed May 11, 2016 5:37 am

Mik1 wrote:GRIP doesnt seem like a game that would attract a lot of hackers for me being a less known racing game than triple A shooter, but i dont know, maybe being able to cheat easier would bring more cheaters.

My only experience with hackers is pretty much team fortress 2 where they are blatantly hacking while spamming "get good get lmaobox" in chat.

Hacker =/= cheater

Cheater is someone who breaks the rules, whatever they may be (abuse bugs, use trainers, etc.). Hacker is someone who manipulates the files, breaks the game code, etc. aka works "outside" of the game. You could say that a modder is a hacker as well.

All that means is you will never see a hacker in the game, you'll see a cheater aka a kid using trainers.

Just my inner grammar nazi kicked in. This is a very common issue people make. Cheaters are usually brain-dead people, while hackers need to be somewhat intelligent to be able to hack the game.

potterman28wxcv wrote:To what Ryu said, I will also add that there are more than one people in Grip - meaning they can focus on several tasks at once.
It's not like the development will stop for two weeks just because they develop an anti-cheat system.

And on top of that it doesn't have to be tackled right away. All I'm saying is this should start be putting into discussion now so that we know the situation on this front. Actual work being done on it will obviously start later on when other things will be finished.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Wed May 11, 2016 4:21 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:I guess once Grip multiplayer gets here, there might be special time schedules to gather people, but that is just not enough. I mean, ideally, you just want to fire the game, hit a button, and tadam in 30 sec max you're matched with people. The casual gamer doesn't want to follow a particular time schedule to play multiplayer.

So yes, locked rooms would definitely destroy multiplayer.


Yes you're right I also would love that but as I said if you find cheaters it's useless and bad rep :(

Anyone knows how would it work if GRIP devs decided to use I don't know VAC or something?

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Hacker =/= cheater

Cheater is someone who breaks the rules, whatever they may be (abuse bugs, use trainers, etc.). Hacker is someone who manipulates the files, breaks the game code, etc. aka works "outside" of the game. You could say that a modder is a hacker as well.

All that means is you will never see a hacker in the game, you'll see a cheater aka a kid using trainers.

Just my inner grammar nazi kicked in. This is a very common issue people make. Cheaters are usually brain-dead people, while hackers need to be somewhat intelligent to be able to hack the game.



Man! I always edit what I wrote and change from hacker to cheater :)
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed May 11, 2016 4:32 pm

HikikomoriGamer wrote:Yes you're right I also would love that but as I said if you find cheaters it's useless and bad rep :(

Anyone knows how would it work if GRIP devs decided to use I don't know VAC or something?

There will always be cheaters as long as there won't be any actual anti-cheat (and even then they still linger like a bad stench). The only way to make sure that there won't be cheaters in a game is to... not make a game. You can't cheat if there isn't anything to cheat in after all.

As to VAC, from what I heard the ban waves are rather rare and they aren't fully accurate. Still, better that than nothing IMO.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Wed May 11, 2016 5:27 pm

So it is all handled by VALVE and even if the devs want to make it better and make the bans crazy like I don't know daily it's useless? Another good options?

Even if VAC is not that great if the devs have no better idea or options this would be a start cause you can always change the anti cheater right?

and yes sadly we will always have some cheaters but if I know that this guy that ruined my fun today will be banned tomorrow makes things a lot better like when you get robed and discover the police got the guy you know

Don't know if it's easy to find so sorry if my google skills sucks but would be nice to get a list for the best 3rd party anti cheat here! If anyone knows any please post here :)
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed May 11, 2016 5:35 pm

I know of EasyAntiCheat (used in iRacing for example), ESL Anti Cheat, Punkbuster and VAC.

I'm not sure how VAC works exactly, so don't quote me on anything regarding it. I just heard that bans from it in CS:GO are quite rare. However you can always have an option to report players, but that would require a demo/replay of the entire race preferably with telemetry data available for it. That way it could be possible to check if someone's acceleration is too good even by slight amount or something along the lines. The downside however would be that it takes a long time to properly check something like this, so there would have to be dedicated team to check just those things.
There's no perfect solution unfortunately and most require a lot of funds especially if the game is meant to last.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Wed May 11, 2016 6:01 pm

Thanks man!

This EasyAntiCheat have some indie games using it so maybe it not too pricey.

Sorry don't know about this but the game will have mod support so can it open more holes for cheaters abuse? man it's so much information to think about that sometimes I get it why some devs don't even care about anti cheat :(

But in the end we will have to wait and see what devs are going to do with this game and I guess it will take some time!
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu May 12, 2016 2:29 am

HikikomoriGamer wrote:Sorry don't know about this but the game will have mod support so can it open more holes for cheaters abuse? man it's so much information to think about that sometimes I get it why some devs don't even care about anti cheat :(

I don't think mod support has anything to do with cheating. Mod support is basically just additional maps and vehicles, perhaps different textures or stuff like that. It's new content, not a modification of the engine.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu May 12, 2016 7:27 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:
HikikomoriGamer wrote:Sorry don't know about this but the game will have mod support so can it open more holes for cheaters abuse? man it's so much information to think about that sometimes I get it why some devs don't even care about anti cheat :(

I don't think mod support has anything to do with cheating. Mod support is basically just additional maps and vehicles, perhaps different textures or stuff like that. It's new content, not a modification of the engine.

If you're adding new vehicles, you can make them exponentially more OP than anything else. You can also modify existing cars parameters so they become OP. Modding is hacking the game, just in a more beneficial form.
But mods are easy to lock out of multiplayer games. Just before each race the game checks if all the files required for this online race are correct (repetitive racing on the same track with the same car won't have to use it, since then most likely game still has all the data in the RAM, so any changes to actual files in between won't matter). If not then *kick*. If yes, then happy racing. Not gonna work with trainers which usually affect memory values which naturally has nothing to do with files themselves.
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Chris_CE » Fri May 13, 2016 10:19 am

Good discussion guys. We will indeed have cheat protection, and we'll review this thread while implementing
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri May 13, 2016 10:23 am

Chris_CE wrote:Good discussion guys. We will indeed have cheat protection, and we'll review this thread while implementing

That's good to know. Still hoping it's going to be more than "we're working on it behind the scenes and can't talk about it" :P
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Re: Anti-cheat

Postby Skid » Fri May 13, 2016 1:18 pm

The main thing to worry about when implementing cheat protection is to try and have the server sanity check values coming in, IE a car shouldn't be able to accelerate from 0 to 700kps in a second, and check the cars not going faster then a sane max speed. That sort of thing.
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