Achievements [DISCUSSION]

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Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Mon May 16, 2016 10:25 am

Haven't found a thread about this, so thought it would be good to discuss about them along with maybe answering some questions regarding them (if they'll actually appear within the game).

So, aside from the obvious "will they be in the game?" my main question is this. Will the achievements be "progress unlocks" or actual achievements?

What do I mean by actual achievement? Something that can be called an achievement, not something you get just by playing the game casually on normal/easy mode while doing only necessary to progress stuff. In other words, achievements related to completion, difficulty levels, stunts and generally things that are difficult enough for anyone to say that when they get them it actually feels like an achievement. Which means the completion part is only 100%, difficulty only on the hardest possible one, and only the most insane stunts count. Achievements related to distance can be completely out of this world, as in "Drive over 1 000 000 km", "Drift over 10 000 km" etc. Things that when someone sees them, they'll automatically feel "wow, that's something".

I'm bringing this up since the whole sense of achievements has been lost in the past years IMO. It has become "here, have a reward for just playing the game". Part of the casualization of the market unfortunately. Am I alone in this opinion? Would anyone want achievements that will really test anyone's skill and patience? Or maybe the progress rewards are enough?
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby yellowquiet » Mon May 16, 2016 2:17 pm

The work around for landmark achievements is to make it a good mark of progress like make it hard to 100% everything or certain skins are secret/hard to unlock. The drive over 1 million Kms feel kinda grindy and only people like TJG would get them.

I'd like to see ones that mark beating a campaign on certain difficulties, unlocking all cars and skins, winning X amount of multiplayer matches, taking X amount missiles up the tailpipe, avoiding X amount leader missiles. That sort of thing.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Mon May 16, 2016 4:21 pm

yellowquiet wrote:The work around for landmark achievements is to make it a good mark of progress like make it hard to 100% everything or certain skins are secret/hard to unlock. The drive over 1 million Kms feel kinda grindy and only people like TJG would get them.

I'd like to see ones that mark beating a campaign on certain difficulties, unlocking all cars and skins, winning X amount of multiplayer matches, taking X amount missiles up the tailpipe, avoiding X amount leader missiles. That sort of thing.

Well the distance was just an example. It can be something like "Ticket to the Moon - Drive over 385 000 km". With an average speed of over 500km/h that would take under 700 hours of constant driving. In any case, there should be grindy achievements, as they test your dedication to something. Dedication is a form of skill after all :P

However I personally suggest to not include any online related achievements. Two reasons. They are usually quite irritating if those are some special requirements or just grindfest which can be done on SP anyway. On top of that, if the MP dies down, it becomes close to impossible to 100% the game/get a Platinum on PS4.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Skid » Mon May 16, 2016 5:32 pm

I must say I'm personally not a fan of any achievement that is basically grind to achieve. Give me stuff like:

Dead Eye - Shoot down an Assassin missile down with a Scorpion missile.
Death from Above - Hit someone with a rail-gun while airborne
Efficiency - Hit 3 cars with a single rail-gun shot
Sharpshooter - Hit someone with stinger missile from XXXX meters away.
I Can Fly - Jump XXXX meters without hitting anything.
What Gravity? - Win a race having spent more then half of it driving on the ceiling.
Full Throttle - Win a racing having never dropped below 500km/h (the first few seconds of the race wouldn't count).
I Can Do This - Win a race having started the last lap in last place.
Epic Loss - Come last after having started the last lap in first place (without breaking or driving in reverse).
Alpha Testers Haven't Got Nothing On Me - Beat one of the fastest lap times recorded during the games easily access.
Can't Catch Me - Keep an Assassin Missile directly behind you for a whole lap (within 100 meters or something).
Victory - Beat a developer in multiplayer.
Shameful Display - Loss to a developer in multiplayer.

IE stuff that you get for being good or skilful or that are daft or interesting.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby yellowquiet » Mon May 16, 2016 6:54 pm

Yeah what this guy said.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Mik1 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:59 am

Skid wrote:Victory - Beat a developer in multiplayer.
Shameful Display - Loss to a developer in multiplayer.

I agree on all above exept these kind of achievments, i dont understand why they exsist in the first place.
Im somewhat of a completionist so i like achievments in games (if youve ever seen my steam page) and for achievments id mainly like to see them for single player.

Nowdays its safe to assume majority of people got a good connection and are going to play the multiplayer but its also heavily based on the players skills, if you make a difficult achievment like "lap the same guy twice" it can become impossible with players of your own (or better) skill level.
Grindy achievments often become a chore instead of a milestone if youre looking to do everything possible, or you unlock it without trying while playing the game normally.

I liked the unlocks on both rollcage and stage 2 and id like to see the "beat campaing with max points" return, maybe unlocking an extra skin for a car (dunno how much extra work that would be tho)

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue May 17, 2016 5:46 am

Mik1 wrote:
Skid wrote:Victory - Beat a developer in multiplayer.
Shameful Display - Loss to a developer in multiplayer.

I agree on all above exept these kind of achievments, i dont understand why they exsist in the first place.
Im somewhat of a completionist so i like achievments in games (if youve ever seen my steam page) and for achievments id mainly like to see them for single player.

Also, this would force the developers to play the game in multiplayer often enough.. What if you don't play in the same time zone as them ?

I doubt they would be willing to play at 4 a.m. just to please some guy playing in Japan (for example)
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby simonc95 » Tue May 17, 2016 7:17 am

Also, this would force the developers to play the game in multiplayer often enough.. What if you don't play in the same time zone as them ?

how bout developer ghost in time trial mode instead then anyone can play against them any time
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue May 17, 2016 7:49 am

Skid wrote:I must say I'm personally not a fan of any achievement that is basically grind to achieve.

I'm not saying those should be a majority ;) But they definitely should appear. If you don't like grinding, you won't be looking at them. If you're completionist, then grinding is something you're highly familiar with anyway.
Achievements that require some absurd level of skill are the ones I'm mainly thinking of. Like I mentioned before, dedication is a form of skill, therefore ridiculous grind should appear as well.

There could also be something like this:
- Millennium Bug - Disable all opponents in the race with a single charge of EMP
- Can't Touch Me - Win a race on highest difficulty level without using a single pick up (they have to be enabled)
- Nailed It - Hit opponent with every single bullet from the machine gun
- Top Speed? What Top Speed?- Turbo for an entire lap
- I'll Be Back - Get hit by Assassin, drop by at least 3 positions and reclaim the lead all in one lap on the hardest difficulty level

Also, every achievement that has "win a race" or generally anything related to overtaking and beating opponents should include the minimum difficulty level as well (preferably highest). Otherwise you'll be doing them at an easy level and whole point of an achievement will go through the roof.

Mik1 wrote:
Skid wrote:Victory - Beat a developer in multiplayer.
Shameful Display - Loss to a developer in multiplayer.

I agree on all above exept these kind of achievments, i dont understand why they exsist in the first place.
Im somewhat of a completionist so i like achievments in games (if youve ever seen my steam page) and for achievments id mainly like to see them for single player.

Agree here. Multiplayer achievements should either be completely separate from single player ones or optional, aka not counting towards 100%/Platinum.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue May 17, 2016 8:02 am

simonc95 wrote:
Also, this would force the developers to play the game in multiplayer often enough.. What if you don't play in the same time zone as them ?

how bout developer ghost in time trial mode instead then anyone can play against them any time

Ever seen Chris playing Rollcage ? No offense to him (or any guy to the dev team), but it's not because they make the game that they are good at it :p

Unless one of them is actually very good, in which case it could be a good idea. Like the ATD thing in Rollcage Stage 2.

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Skid » Tue May 17, 2016 11:48 am

Comments about the dev achievements are fair, they are just ones I've seen before that are fun.

I have no real issue with challenging issues but from a game design point of view they should not be the majority of them, just a handful, in other words the majority of them should be achievable from an average player if they put in a degree of effort. Also it might be nice to have easter eggs linked to achievements, like Sanctum's, have a location on each map that is very hard to get to, put something special there, and give achievement for finding it.

If the devs need time trial ghosts, they have a lovely list of players setting fast times on their tracks they could ask ;)
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby TheOnLY » Tue May 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Skid wrote: Also it might be nice to have easter eggs linked to achievements, like Sanctum's, have a location on each map that is very hard to get to, put something special there, and give achievement for finding it.

I want a caged elephant achievement :D

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Queadah » Tue May 17, 2016 1:15 pm

+1 to Skid suggestions :) except indeed perhaps for dev stuff

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue May 17, 2016 1:25 pm

Skid wrote:I have no real issue with challenging issues but from a game design point of view they should not be the majority of them, just a handful, in other words the majority of them should be achievable from an average player if they put in a degree of effort.

Good point - I tend to forget that not everyone is a tryhard. Most of the GRIP devs are (I'm sure) better than this average of players, so yeah it would still be a challenge for most of them.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu May 19, 2016 1:44 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:
Skid wrote:I have no real issue with challenging issues but from a game design point of view they should not be the majority of them, just a handful, in other words the majority of them should be achievable from an average player if they put in a degree of effort.

Good point - I tend to forget that not everyone is a tryhard. Most of the GRIP devs are (I'm sure) better than this average of players, so yeah it would still be a challenge for most of them.

And I actually fully disagree with this. Achievement should not be something that can be scaled down to others. When we think of achievements in real life, the true ones, then regardless of who sees them, they think of words like "impressive", "amazing" etc. so why we have to dial down those when it comes to games? This I believe is the main reason why achievements in games are dumbed down nowadays to the level of "progress rewards".

Let me explain my point further. On average, less than 20% players (it's closer to 10% than 20%, but nvm) finishes the story mode in games and this is without including difficulty level or side quests. Just story line itself. About 50% reach 1/3rd of it. That means an achievement for an average gamer is just finishing the story line. Would an actual gamer call that an achievement? In the true sense of the word? I definitely would not. If you want achievements for average gamers, than you are looking for things that don't require any effort from you, and I literally mean none. Because effort for an average gamer is to find an hour of time to sit and play the game.

For rewarding average players for their progress, you can have some in-game rewards, like more skins for cars, some emblems, etc. Like that badge table in Rollcage Stage 2. But achievements should be left to people that want to achieve something in the game, aka not the average gamers. So that if you see any of those achievements unlocked, the very first thing that will come to your mind will not be the ass licking/being polite "congrats", but an actual feeling of being impressed. That they did something that deserves some form of respect of their skill/dedication.

Anything less and the achievements will lose their meaning completely. If that means all of those should be of the "gold" trophy level, then so be it. On top of that, this can serve as a good marketing option. "Most difficult achievements seen in games to date". Whether someone admits it or not, that is going to bring a lot of crowd with it. Even casuals aka average gamers, not just hardcore players and achievement hunters. Will casuals moan "this is too hard"? Of course, they always are, regardless of what happens. But that's the whole point of achievements. You get the feeling of satisfaction from unlocking something that is not possible for your average Joe. If it is possible for your average gamer with a degree of effort, then it's pointless. I'll be able to do it with a finger up my arse, which means all the satisfaction and sense of achievement just goes through the window. And that leads back to the situation that is everywhere, which is coming up with your own achievements because in-game ones are effectively "progress rewards".

In short, achievement should force an average gamer to up their level to a "skilled gamer" and even then put a decent degree of effort... to get the easiest achievements. The hardest ones should literally make you go "hats off" to someone who has unlocked even one of those. Anything less and it's pointless to implement them.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby Tathendal » Thu May 19, 2016 3:26 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote: The hardest ones should literally make you go "hats off" to someone who has unlocked even one of those. Anything less and it's pointless to implement them.


+1 to this.

On the other hand, I would be not bothered at all if there were no achievements in GRIP. Also not having trading cards. As a statement. (if the devs think they suck:D)

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby wantfastcars » Thu May 19, 2016 4:28 pm

I like trading cards because I like the profile backgrounds and chat emotes.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other on achievements.
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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby TheOnLY » Thu May 19, 2016 5:09 pm

I think it is the mix that makes for good achievements. Some are grindy, some are easy to get (at least with some playtime), some may even be jokes, but there should be enough hard achievements too.
If I really enjoy a game, i actually like grinding achievements. I remember the Left 4 Dead series (the only games where i have all achievements) i played with friends for hours just to get a single achievement.

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby yellowquiet » Thu May 19, 2016 9:18 pm

wantfastcars wrote:I like trading cards because I like the profile backgrounds and chat emotes.

Ooh, I wonder what the emotes might be if they have cards and stuff.
I didn't even know what was in the splatter pack before I bought it.

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Re: Achievements [DISCUSSION]

Postby KazzyMac » Sun May 22, 2016 9:18 pm

TheOnLY wrote:
Skid wrote: Also it might be nice to have easter eggs linked to achievements, like Sanctum's, have a location on each map that is very hard to get to, put something special there, and give achievement for finding it.

I want a caged elephant achievement :D

This made me laugh for some reason.


And then it made me remember the little smiley-face things that were in Stage II that you needed to collect to unlock the Tier 3 car skins. I wouldn't say 'no' to something similar being included as some sort of treasure-hunt to find little 3D rotating Caged Element logos to unlock some customisations/achievements.

Maybe an achievement for finding one and an achievement for finding all of them?


edit

I don't mind 'difficult' achievements but there just needs to be a balance between 'difficult' and 'unfair'. I'm looking at you, Need for Speed 2015. :I But yeah, there is a satisfaction for nailing a few really challenging 'cheevos to get that shiny 100%.

To this day I still feel me getting 100% on Rayman Origins was one of my all-time accomplishments. That game gets frickin' brutal, yo.
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