My current Feedback (Wall of text)

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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:19 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:It's not as simple as that. Your goal is not to dethrone the first, but rather to secure yourself a position as high as possible. It's better to secure your 2nd position rather than focusing on beating the 1st, and in the end finishing 4th or 5th because you didn't have enough to deal with the other guys, and someone else took the lead.

Well my goal in a race is to cross the finish line as first. I don't mind losing but at that point it doesn't matter to me on which position I end up, be it 2nd, 3rd, 4th or whatever. And no offense but to be honest that mentality of yours there sounds like you've already accepted that you lost, like you're not gonna try and win the race, you're just there as some extra "noise" on the track, nothing more. I can't even think of a worse mentality to race with. On top of that I'd say you're trying to dethrone the first through the "slow and steady" strategy but in terms of points. You can't dethrone first when you're first after all. And if it's a single race you don't get anything for finishing lower than 1st anyway. All of those positions are equal at that point.

On top of all that, there's one important thing that comes in as well. Excitement. You won't get much excitement from racers that have a mathematical approach to racing. For that you can watch Formula 1 if you want to bore yourself to death. When you start doing everything you can to win a race (that's allowed in the "rule book" naturally), that's when the racing becomes extremely close and exciting and this is especially the case with combat racers like GRIP. When you take risks and those pay off, you get massive satisfaction from it and fun as well. And when it doesn't pay off? At least you made the race more exciting and had someone sweat a bit.

Let me give you a quick example. In this race you can easily tell that every single driver aimed for the 1st place and took the risks for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8bn6OGi5kA

Result? Probably the most spectacular race of all time.

And a last video. There are two quotes in this video that have literally become my mantra when it comes to racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCWDSpwv9U

You may cal me a mad man, "it's only you", say whatever you want, but you can't do anything of those to the words of that man, as he's the only person that ever lived to reach such a pinnacle of driving. He most likely knew more about racing than anyone ever will.

potterman28wxcv wrote:If you're last, sure you get a lot of assassins, but you won't stack them because you need to fire them away to make place for other more useful pickups. If you're close to second, now that's a position where you'd like to stack the assassins, but you don't really get enough of them anyway, and same for EMP. So yeah, in the end, it's quite rare when two assassins get launched at the same time.

More useful pickups? You mean those that the other players can also use, which effectively means that you'll be as fast as the players ahead of you, not faster. Also, you have two pickup slots. If you have one Assassin, you can still use the other slot. When you get two Assassins (which ain't that hard) you shot them one by one and get other pickups. You may even end up getting another Assassin shortly after shooting the two, which means a triple Assassin wave, which will make anyone's day a lot worse :D
And as a last player, the best tactic possible is to not try and be faster than everyone ahead of you. You want to slow down people at the front, so they get closer to each other and start fighting among themselves, which will slow them down more than you ever could gain up on them. And Assassins can do just that, along with EMP naturally.
In other words, it's easier and more likely to finish 1st (or simply on higher positions if points come into play) when the pack is together, than when everyone are spread out. Because that way you have a lot less distance to travel to get from last to 1st and vice versa naturally. It's pure logic and you can't argue against that :P

potterman28wxcv wrote:It's not because people are stupid - it's because "kill the 1st" is not the goal when you're between last and 4th. To be honest, stacking assassins, now that would be stupid when you're last. Unless specific situations, or unless you really enjoy being someone's nemesis at the price of your position.

Again, as pointed out above, stacking Assassins is the best thing you can do when being last. If you slow down the front of the pack, the front then slows down the mid pack, which naturally means you being at the rear has a higher chance of catching them. Seems like you forgot that slowing down opponents is a very viable way of catching up to someone ;) Especially when it means that they are going to start fighting between each other.
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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:34 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:It's not as simple as that. Your goal is not to dethrone the first, but rather to secure yourself a position as high as possible. It's better to secure your 2nd position rather than focusing on beating the 1st, and in the end finishing 4th or 5th because you didn't have enough to deal with the other guys, and someone else took the lead.

Well my goal in a race is to cross the finish line as first. I don't mind losing but at that point it doesn't matter to me on which position I end up, be it 2nd, 3rd, 4th or whatever. And no offense but to be honest that mentality of yours there sounds like you've already accepted that you lost, like you're not gonna try and win the race, you're just there as some extra "noise" on the track, nothing more. I can't even think of a worse mentality to race with. On top of that I'd say you're trying to dethrone the first through the "slow and steady" strategy but in terms of points. You can't dethrone first when you're first after all. And if it's a single race you don't get anything for finishing lower than 1st anyway. All of those positions are equal at that point.

Well I prefer a lot finishing second/third in a consistent way rather than finishing here and there first, and ending most of the other time last or close to.

It doesn't mean I don't get any excitement. On the contrary, it's as much exciting for me than if I was heading for the 1st position at all time. I'd even say that it's more motivating - instead of setting yourself the "be first" goal that is hardly reachable.. You earn your way progressively towards it.

I understand that some people like you will go only for the first position though. But it's not the case for everyone - i'm not following your mindset, and I'm still getting much enjoyment from the game. You're talking of "worst mentality", but this is actually extremely subjective. Maybe it's the worst mentality for you - for me, it's the best one. Someone else might have its own different "best mentality". You just can't assume everyone will act the same way as you would act - people have different strategies for different goals.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:On top of all that, there's one important thing that comes in as well. Excitement. You won't get much excitement from racers that have a mathematical approach to racing.

The mathematical approach is only there to describe the possible optimal strategies, the possible outcomes, etc.. In practice, you just don't follow one single line-of-conduct, you also follow your own instinct. Because a line-of-conduct can't possible cover any scenario, but also because as a human you have your own desires-of-the-day, and maybe even desires-of-the-minute.

Even in Formula 1, reflexes are human-driven. Maybe if you change your gear sooner/later you will get more speed.. I mean, I barely know the F1 universe, but surely their brain doesn't follow a strictly mathematical algorithm, there must be a part of self-decision at some point. Else, why would it matter which pilot you take?

Ryu Makkuro wrote:You may cal me a mad man, "it's only you", say whatever you want, but you can't do anything of those to the words of that man, as he's the only person that ever lived to reach such a pinnacle of driving. He most likely knew more about racing than anyone ever will.

You are saying that there is not a single person that knows more about racing than you do? How are you so sure?

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:If you're last, sure you get a lot of assassins, but you won't stack them because you need to fire them away to make place for other more useful pickups. If you're close to second, now that's a position where you'd like to stack the assassins, but you don't really get enough of them anyway, and same for EMP. So yeah, in the end, it's quite rare when two assassins get launched at the same time.

More useful pickups? You mean those that the other players can also use, which effectively means that you'll be as fast as the players ahead of you, not faster.

If you stack Assassins, or if you fire them, you only affect 1 single guy.

If you use a turbo, you affect everyone because you go faster than everyone. In order to reach the same effectiveness with the assassin, when you're last, you would need to fire 9 of them to every single person.

Ryu Makkuro wrote: Also, you have two pickup slots. If you have one Assassin, you can still use the other slot. When you get two Assassins (which ain't that hard) you shot them one by one and get other pickups. You may even end up getting another Assassin shortly after shooting the two, which means a triple Assassin wave, which will make anyone's day a lot worse :D

Yes, but then you only get 1 pick-up per pick-up spawn, which basically halves your pick-up income.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:And as a last player, the best tactic possible is to not try and be faster than everyone ahead of you. You want to slow down people at the front, so they get closer to each other and start fighting among themselves, which will slow them down more than you ever could gain up on them. And Assassins can do just that, along with EMP naturally.
In other words, it's easier and more likely to finish 1st (or simply on higher positions if points come into play) when the pack is together, than when everyone are spread out. Because that way you have a lot less distance to travel to get from last to 1st and vice versa naturally. It's pure logic and you can't argue against that :P

And I agree on that. But the point is more about "should I stockpile assassins or not when i'm last". If the leader is alone, with a fair distance between him and the pack, then it might be worth to stockpile assassins or wait for someone to fire one to fire yours, or wait to have an EMP+assassin combo.

But if the leader isn't alone, if you don't stockpile them, you can just fire them and maximize your pick-up income. Unless you want to save it for when the leader (whoever it might be) is alone again.. Which might be a viable strategy?
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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:54 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:Well I prefer a lot finishing second/third in a consistent way rather than finishing here and there first, and ending most of the other time last or close to.

It doesn't mean I don't get any excitement. On the contrary, it's as much exciting for me than if I was heading for the 1st position at all time. I'd even say that it's more motivating - instead of setting yourself the "be first" goal that is hardly reachable.. You earn your way progressively towards it.

I understand that some people like you will go only for the first position though. But it's not the case for everyone - i'm not following your mindset, and I'm still getting much enjoyment from the game. You're talking of "worst mentality", but this is actually extremely subjective. Maybe it's the worst mentality for you - for me, it's the best one. Someone else might have its own different "best mentality". You just can't assume everyone will act the same way as you would act - people have different strategies for different goals.

Well, another essay to convey my point. Here we go xD

I'm not saying it's a worst mentality for me, you, someone or something else. I'm simply saying it is the worst mentality for the pure racing excitement. That comes from the simple fact that the bigger the risks taken, the more exciting something becomes. Your mentality effectively comes down to "take no risks", which is why it's the worst one for racing.
It is definitely very good mentality for consistency and other things that make many motorsports teams successful. Not really something that you'd want when watching a race or simply racing for fun.

And I also haven't said it removes all the excitement. It simply reduces it. As to it being more motivating... I disagree strongly. The higher aim you have in life, the further you'll get. The problem is in how you go about achieving it. If you want to go straight from nothing to everything, like for example 5th to 1st, sure, it can be demotivating due to how difficult it is (aka impossible). You need to do it progressively to get it and in racing it means you need to take all the chances you'll get, even if there's a huge risk involved, because there may not be another one. In a situation where the risk didn't paid out... you learn from it. Defeat teaches you a million of things, victory only pride.

Another things is that if you don't progress... then you regress since others will not be sitting still doing nothing. Also just because there can be only one player who will be 1st doesn't mean you should stop aiming for that position. I'd say you should aim for that position even more specifically because of that.

potterman28wxcv wrote:The mathematical approach is only there to describe the possible optimal strategies, the possible outcomes, etc.. In practice, you just don't follow one single line-of-conduct, you also follow your own instinct. Because a line-of-conduct can't possible cover any scenario, but also because as a human you have your own desires-of-the-day, and maybe even desires-of-the-minute.

Even in Formula 1, reflexes are human-driven. Maybe if you change your gear sooner/later you will get more speed.. I mean, I barely know the F1 universe, but surely their brain doesn't follow a strictly mathematical algorithm, there must be a part of self-decision at some point. Else, why would it matter which pilot you take?

By mathematical approach I simply mean not taking risks to win when you endanger your current position. Aka "not fall in the pack by all means".

And reflexes in F1? Changing gear sooner or later? First of all, the engineers have calculated when they should change the gears to get the best performance, so that's out of the way. Secondly, after 3 laps the difference between the cars is already few seconds big. There's no actual racing there. It all comes down to pit stop strategies, aka tire and fuel usage. The common joke in the sim gaming community is that Gran Turismo is a "driving on a line simulator" in terms of AI performance. Formula 1 is basically a Gran Turismo AI in real life.

potterman28wxcv wrote:You are saying that there is not a single person that knows more about racing than you do? How are you so sure?

How did you come to that conclusion? Did you even watch the linked video? I never said or even implied "I know more than anyone else". I meant Ayrton Senna from the very beginning. That's why I used "he", not "I" :P

And if you don't know who he is... I highly advise to do the research on him. There's even a film about him called "Senna".

potterman28wxcv wrote:If you stack Assassins, or if you fire them, you only affect 1 single guy.

If you use a turbo, you affect everyone because you go faster than everyone. In order to reach the same effectiveness with the assassin, when you're last, you would need to fire 9 of them to every single person.

You affect 1 player directly. You affect everyone else indirectly, because the front pack will start fighting between each other. When they are fighting against each other, they're not taking the best lines and obviously the weapons are slowing them down as well. The more players catch up to that group the bigger the slowdown becomes. And that will last until they get separated enough to a point where they can't affect each other with a weapon.

It's not as simple as directly affecting someone. Indirectly affecting is a huge thing. If you use a turbo, then that gives you that small boost for few seconds. Chances are others will also use it, so it negates your Turbo. But again, if you make others fight between each other... there's no way of negating that as long as your aim is to close the gap rather than fighting with someone near you.

potterman28wxcv wrote:Yes, but then you only get 1 pick-up per pick-up spawn, which basically halves your pick-up income.

Not all pick up spawns allows multiple pickups. On top of that not all pick-up spawns will have pickups on them. You know, you're not the only one on the track and those take some time to respawn. Plus the animation time as well.

potterman28wxcv wrote:And I agree on that. But the point is more about "should I stockpile assassins or not when i'm last". If the leader is alone, with a fair distance between him and the pack, then it might be worth to stockpile assassins or wait for someone to fire one to fire yours, or wait to have an EMP+assassin combo.

But if the leader isn't alone, if you don't stockpile them, you can just fire them and maximize your pick-up income. Unless you want to save it for when the leader (whoever it might be) is alone again.. Which might be a viable strategy?

If the leader isn't alone you definitely want to stockpile them. Because then when an Assassin gets a hit (and it will, since shield won't be active due to the constant fight), 2nd takes the lead and the "ex-1st" is incapable of fighting back and instead of having them slow down each other, you have a 1st on a run. You send two Assassins... surprise mothafucka to everyone who thinks they can take an easy lead. Shooting a single Assassin may be beneficial when the 1st player will be alone and Assassin will be hitting from the front.

But currently... you're wasting an Assassin if you're shooting just one.
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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:41 pm

Need a synopsis here guys or I'll never be able to read this thread :/
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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:29 am

I love reading but, can some give me a smaller version?
Science WINS again!!!
Then they opened a portal to another dimension and kidnapping the locals.
The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
and then... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE :twisted:

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Re: My current Feedback (Wall of text)

Postby Queadah » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:10 pm

I'm totally not summing this one up lol.
May Potty find the fortitude to pull it off X)


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