Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

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rutra80
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Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:12 pm

The game looks really good and I think we have a decent foundation here. Thanks guys and keep it up!
Now for the critique:

It feels more like RC2 than RC1, which isn't good. I already see a lot of players complaining about it being too unforgiving. Don't listen to them. I'm a decent RC1 player and find GRIP way too softcore. After 2 laps I felt like being driven by the wire. I know you have a hard time pleasing all your potential buyers, but you won't please everyone. Focus on one group. You can either go the typical arcade race game way and make a game that will sell fast and get forgotten fast, or you can go the more hardcore way and make another cult classic. Trust the players, many will master a harder game and love it for a long time. Once again: don't try to please everybody, it won't work.

What I feel:
  • Not enough acceleration. It seems too real, maybe even slower than Veyron. I want more arcade acceleration.
  • Too much understeer. I can really feel that it's a 4x4 car (I own a Subaru) which is good - it means that you can pass the feeling to a player with current physics, but please give more torque to the rear wheels - oversteer is much more fun.
  • Inconsistent grip. When turning there's too much grip (and understeer), I want more tendency to drift, model a bit more limited slip differential or something. But then when I accelerate from stop, in the straight line, on sand, there's not enough grip, like on snow almost - the car should use more its jet engines then or something.
  • The game is too forgiving. Snuggling to a wall stabilizes the ride instead of bouncing the car off. Crashing into a wall just turns the car a bit and stops it, where's all the kinetic energy? It should bounce up and spin. Don't listen to people who complain about bumps, in RC1 if you didn't know the track enough to avoid bumpy places, you had your car all over the place.
  • Sound effects are too quiet. It's crucial to hear your wheels losing grip (and seeing the skid marks) - it provides huge amount of the feel and helps control the car. I don't like the engine sound, it sounds like go-kart. I'd love to hear the sound of turbo spinning. If you don't want to make it jet-like as it was in RC1, make it at least sound powerful, like the burbling sound of boxer engines with unequal length exhaust manifolds, or crossplane V8. Who needs a soundtrack when the engine sounds good? I was playing RC1 without soundtrack most of the time.
  • Camera doesn't support the feeling of speed. FoV is too narrow and the FoV effect when accelerating and at high speeds isn't strong enough. Rear wheels cover the view too much, we need to see front wheels better - if they fit between the obstacles, the rear will probably fit too. Perhaps being closer to the ground would help too. Provide several camera positions.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Fate » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:24 pm

Some great feedback there rutra80, thanks for that. Some I agree with.

I reckon there's going to be a massive ongoing debate about the handling over the months. But yes, more of a rear wheel feel is where I'm thinking too.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:13 am

Ok further thoughts after another quick play:
  • You need to make the acceleration curve more square - much more acceleration at start and on low speeds.
  • When at stop, full turn and full throttle should make the car spin. Currently it feels like there's some ASR, not enough maneuverability, huge turning radius.
  • Tyres don't climb things - when close to a curb or wall, they shouldn't derail/slide off but climb it. It would make handling harder but more natural.
  • Collisions are way too forgiving. Obey the Newton!
  • I can actually hear the turbo spinning. But still the engine sounds bad especially on high revs, maybe you need 2 samples for low & high revs to crossfade. Also please make the sound of tires losing grip more apparent.
  • We need to see smoke\dirt when tires lose grip, and skidmarks. Put the car a bit farther from camera. There also are some issues with camera not turning fast enough.
  • Please implement some proper supersampling AA and multisampling AA (and beware of Radeon SSAA blur).
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Sceptre » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:15 am

Good feedback, I definitely agree on the handling, which is still in heavy development right now, so it is hard to give a solid opinion in its current state.

I also think the sound effects need to be more prominent as well. I've grown up in the offroad racing scene, so hearing a powerful roar of an engine complimented with a high pitch turbo sputtering with it is something I always love to hear. I could probably open a whole new thread about engine sounds themselves because I'm so obsessed with them.
It would give me the chills to have something like this with Grip's cars, hearing the rattle at the starting line 8-) : https://youtu.be/dK_fE60MSyg
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Queadah » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:11 pm

@rutra80 lots of meaningful remarks. Amen for hardcore, brother!
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:53 pm

Ok let me brainfart a bit more:
  • Please include other aspect ratios, I'm on 4:3.
  • The blur of wheels is butt-ugly, even with motion blur off. Generally motion blur is so 2005, it's an era of 120Hz monitors now. FoV effect gives a much better impression of speed - please make it stronger.
  • Sometimes dirt from under the wheels of other cars obscures the view too much, it makes things harder in a not funny way. It also makes my Radeon R7 260X drop FPS, hopefully you can optimize it. Also on the night track, when the engine blinks that blue electrical thing, it blinds too much too.
  • HUD bars consisting of nice contours are hard to read, fill them and make transparent.
  • Please make the Med engine power the default and tune to it. Low is so zzzZZZzzz...
  • Physics/handling is too forgiving/unreal. When I stop while sticking on vertical wall, the car slooowly slides down, it should fall quickly due to lack of downforce coming from speed & aerodynamics. Falling down is generally too slow, like there's some low gravity. About collisions I already wrote, they break all the laws of motion.
  • Did I mention that the game is too forgiving? I didn't play even 10 times and I already win on Hard on both tracks.

And thanks for a great patch, keep it up! :)
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:23 pm

rutra80 wrote:[*]Did I mention that the game is too forgiving? I didn't play even 10 times and I already win on Hard on both tracks.

I agree on this. But I believe it's a side effect from the 180° random spin being fixed.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:35 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:
rutra80 wrote:[*]Did I mention that the game is too forgiving? I didn't play even 10 times and I already win on Hard on both tracks.

I agree on this. But I believe it's a side effect from the 180° random spin being fixed.

I think it's more because we have very easy tracks and the AI aren't very competitive just yet. Catchup is very strong as well, that might be why it feels too 'forgiving' when you're in 1st. :/
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Chris_CE » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:46 am

The physics and handling has quite a ways to go, and we plan to have more oversteer and modify the friction overall.

In terms of engine sound, when's the last time you played rollcage? Those cars sound like little toys in comparison to ours, if I'll be honest. There's an underlying growl to our engine, combined with the high pitched jet engine doing it's thing.

What camera view are you using? There are multiple views, a couple of which are quite far from the car, with the wheels not being accentuated by the perspective.

The dirt particles definitely need some optimization. At the start of the race especially, there's far too much slow down.

I agree with med power engine as default. Game feels better overall

I'm surprised you think collisions are too forgiving, when the car overreacts to colliding with objects and terrain due to physX. Rob (programmer) is going to jump deep into physX and tame these collisions.

The reason you're winning so much is most likely due to the AI, as it needs quite a bit of work. Once they're up to snuff, it won't be an easy win.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:18 pm

I play Rollcage more or less every month almost since its release. I mean RC1, i never got into RC2. In Redux the engine sound was imported from RC2 which was awful, I replaced it with original sound from RC1. The sound you're using for engine in GRIP doesn't sound good on high revs. Generally all the sound in GRIP as for today sounds bad - it's kind of muffled, you need to apply some low & high frequency boost to it, liven and widen it. Make the dynamics less compressed so collisions sound way more powerful, currently it's just some *clank*. I suggest to develop without music, then when the SFX is satisfying you can just turn the music on. Don't underestimate the significance of SFX, it passes a lot of feel to the player.

How can I switch the camera views? Anyway the wheels getting blurred look bad. I guess you're afraid of temporal aliasing but I think it still would be better than the blur of the outlines of the wheels.

Collisions as for now feel completely unreal. There's a lot of energy with these cars - a lot of speed and weight. Collisions should be really messy. Players should be forced to avoid them at all costs. In RC1 a collision often meant wild spinning and being hurled up the air. I know you're afraid of a light feel to the cars, but currently those cars weighting probably 10-20 tons at least, when colliding with a wall at 300 km/h just make a *clank* sound and skid a bit... oh please.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:24 am

I agree on the sound. It sells the atmosphere better than graphics ever could

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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Queadah » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:26 am

Mmh, the sound effects could give back the feeling of weight (upon landing) even if the car is thrown into the air for instance, indeed...

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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:31 pm

Thanks for the new patch! Lots of improvements, feels like open early access is really near :)
As for the new bugs, once I visited the configuration menu where I can set up the hud, speedometer etc, it stayed on top like the overlay - other menus got obscured by it and I could only click on it.

Continuing on sounds, you need to add a lot of low frequencies to collision sounds, dunno, 30-70Hz? And make more of them for variety.
Engines need some bass too. I guess you currently use one short sample for all the revs range, so low frequencies get lost when you transpose it to higher revs. That's why I think it would be a good idea to crossfade to another sample at some revs level, a sample of higher revs but still with some low frequencies back (so they're still there at higher revs). Strong 60-90Hz content on idle revs would be sweet, some 100-130Hz content on high revs could be beneficial too. Make our subwoofers pump some air!
Plus, currently when you play a lot of sounds at once, sometimes Windows limiter gets triggered and mutes the sound for a second. Actually you need to make the game sounds MORE QUIET - you must increase dynamics range. Keep high volumes for explosions and collisions (but don't let them clip) so they're actually shocking, not drown in other noises.

The feeling of speed got MUCH better with this patch. But handling/collisions still have some way to go.

I personally hope you will add 4:3 aspect ratio support.
Last edited by rutra80 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby StickyBassline » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:42 pm

I really don't want the extremely punishing loss of control that you get if you accidentally bump a tiny pebble or hit a wall in Rc1, I really don't want that in Grip :/ I love how it feels now.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:35 pm

Just played some more laps and yeah, the game gets properly hard :D
Better acceleration from stop is still needed. And I'd like the car to feel a tad lighter...
Just do it the way you did in Rollcage 1

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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:44 pm

Hey that was a short time between patches and yet there are some major strides :o
Here's what is IMHO suboptimal:
  • Cars still need a bit more maneuverability
  • When I depress acceleration button I want the car to deaccelerate a bit faster
  • When I depress acceleration I want the car to be even more maneuverable
  • When I (hand)brake I want it to slow down faster and slip (assume more grip and less/no ABS)
  • Where are skidmarks? They help to keep control when drifting
  • Faster acceleration from stop pls!
  • Do these cars excrete glue from tyres or what? Because currently their grip to the walls surely doesn't have much to do with downforce (they should fall when slowed down or stopped!)
  • I still often get stuck in the world
  • Doppler effect should be more pronounced
  • SFX suck (see above posts)
  • handling got much better and collisions somehow too but the latter still need some work
About the new track with grass and glaciers: in the pipes/tunnels I'd love the barriers to force the player to do some rapid ground-wall-ceiling-wall spinning!
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Santeri » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:37 am

rutra80 wrote:Hey that was a short time between patches and yet there are some major strides :o
Here's what is IMHO suboptimal:
  • Cars still need a bit more maneuverability
  • When I depress acceleration button I want the car to deaccelerate a bit faster
  • When I depress acceleration I want the car to be even more maneuverable
  • When I (hand)brake I want it to slow down faster and slip (assume more grip and less/no ABS)
  • Where are skidmarks? They help to keep control when drifting
  • Faster acceleration from stop pls!
  • Do these cars excrete glue from tyres or what? Because currently their grip to the walls surely doesn't have much to do with downforce (they should fall when slowed down or stopped!)
  • I still often get stuck in the world
  • Doppler effect should be more pronounced
  • SFX suck (see above posts)
  • handling got much better and collisions somehow too but the latter still need some work
About the new track with grass and glaciers: in the pipes/tunnels I'd love the barriers to force the player to do some rapid ground-wall-ceiling-wall spinning!


I honestly agree with everything you've pointed out here, especially the maneuverability, SFX and faster acceleration from a complete halt. The SFX especially need way more kick to them, more bass, especially when landing from jumps and the such.

Also I believe somebody has mentioned it before, but there has to be some SFX when your car is airborne and falling down, kind of like in Motorstorm... Not sure what it's called, but damn it adds so very much to the feel of the game, it would be perfect.

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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:59 pm

Yeah, I don't know what has changed with the patch that just got downloaded, but there's a steering sensitivity setting now, which doesn't help very much. I control the car digitally, not with analog sticks, so I either don't turn or turn all the way. Game needs some tuned curve for such controls, so at the key press the wheels should IMO first for a fraction of a second turn to some extent really quick (so we have our maneuverability and less understeer), and then turn a lil bit slower after a fraction of a second so we don't go into uncontrolled drift too quick. Current steering seems to be linear, with high sensitivity being too drifty, medium being too slow at the beginning and too fast after a fraction of a second (or vice-versa? have to check again...), and low being too slow/understeery.
SFX hasn't changed.
Acceleration from a complete halt is still hard to detect even with the most sensitive geological instruments. Readouts from a theodolite suggest that continental drift is more dynamic. Seriously the game feels a bit like happening underwater. On occasion when the car gets hurled up from the ground, it falls down way too slowly, then I need to accelerate backwards to turn around, stop, and accelerate forward to continue the race that has already finished, which I didn't notice because I fell asleep in the process. Honestly I think it would be much more fun if it would be easier to lose control, but also more rapid to get back on track.
To be more precise, by acceleration from complete halt I mean the first second or two - I want by that time to reach 200km/h at least, especially if before the halt I was driving fast - model some KERS which recovers energy from braking, collisions and explosions.

The car doesn't seem to communicate with me very well. There are no signs of incoming loss of grip - there should be squeal of tyres, some smoke/dirt, and skid marks to let me know that the drift is incoming and then happening.

Why there's delay on activating pickups? I press the key and it takes like a second for the machine gun to start shooting at the car which by the time hid behind the bend. I activate something else few meters before the pickup, and before the slot fades away it's too late - I get past the new pickup missing it. It should be instant.

Easy AI could be dumbed down a bit.
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby rutra80 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:02 pm

:* for the development

I'm a huge fan of the Wild engine power :!: With low digital steering speed and high sensitivity (does it change anything with digital steering?) it feels quite quite. Could you expose some more settings for steering and sliders with more range for speed & sensitivity instead of 3 settings? I wonder if I could tweak it to make it feel really good.

Turning around in tunnels is terrible - car neither does slide off the walls nor climb them. The same when I'm touching the kerb at 45 degrees.

That new anti-collision assistance is confusing
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Re: Stream of thoughts after 1st quick play

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:44 pm

Barely any resources have gone into sound so far because of the size of our team, and our very small budget (but this will change, now). I did a bunch of the sounds myself. Good to know they suck, though.

Recovering from a crash is still very WIP, as for one, the physics and friction model in the game isn't finished, and we haven't added other maneuvers in yet

The machine gun is the only pickup that has a delay. It warms up. The pickup slot fading out being a negative is debatable

Yep, AI still needs some tweaks for low difficulty. Would be good to have a strictly beginner/novice mode

The problem with exposing so many settings for the car handling, is that it kind of defeats the purpose of adding car classes. The tank class will be coming in soon, and that will have a different driving model. Same with the speedster class, which is more agile than the current car

There is a bug that causes the car to lose traction in the tunnel. I've been trying to figure out why for weeks now

The new anti-collision is to prevent the catastrophic collisions the cars were having before.

Everything is WIP, just give us some time
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