New physics...?! wtf?!

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mrjimp
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New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby mrjimp » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:45 pm

Well.. I dont know.?

Ups:
Feels more like a real car, doing 2 wheelies and stuff. Jumps are more fun.

Crashes with other cars. Yeah they feel better. Still to easy to shove cars around though.

Skidding in normal curves feels abit better.


Downs:
Landings. What the hell? Welcome to skid-for-no-reason galore. The cars (actuall I've only driven tha wallander so far, but several (30+) laps on alestra, island, sky and transport) are acting like very overpowered back wheel driven cars. Not jet powered. If you dont skid in air when doing a perfectly straight jump, there is no reason start a skid (meaning you actually start to spin out) when landing. No reason what so ever.

Rockits you fire make you spinout. So, How am I supposed to empty my weaponsbay without risking to blow myself away? Not cool.
(Btw, you have a bug when fireing rockits. The rockit inherits the movement of the car during the entire fire animation, which causes it to have to much velocity into curves, or down into the ground if you fire while jumping. Fixx that by not inherit any speed attributes except for the initial speed.)

Downforce?
Again downforce seems to have been reduced yet again. Some small bumps sends me off, while they shouldnt. Remember downforce increases with speed. Increases. Sky track is very very hard to play.

Havent tried the new car yet, but you guys must seriously start thinking about car balance. The warlander is way too good imho.

Also, while I'm at it, this game feels more and more like a random die toss. Doesnt matter how good you play, you can still just right out loose with no chance of winning. Skill anyone? After all when it all comes down to it it is a racing game?

Well, that'd my 2 cents.

Thanks. /Jimmi

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Tathendal » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:30 pm

Are you absolutely 100% positive that you are not holding gas or steering to any direction while you land or when you go into a bump? How I see it, this game tries to be a little more simulation-y than, say for example, Burnout series. Even though the game is fiction, the physics in it are not, is kind of what I mean here. Remember the speed you are going, and that you are not driving on tarmac. I like that driving in these speeds feel dangerous and "like you are on the knife's edge", surely the physics/handling/etc are not yet final, but still. About 5/6 times I feel that crashing was my own mistake and about 1/6 times I feel it wasn't my fault(or at least part of it wasn't), and I expect that ratio to get better when clipping and physics issues get solved.

The "issue" you mention with rockets, well I have to say I disagree. It is natural that the rocket inherits the vehicle's momentum and as it is, it actually needs a little skill to decide when you gonna launch.

Also, if you have only tried Wallander, I recommend also trying Beck.

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:10 pm

mrjimp wrote:Remember downforce increases with speed. Increases.

That is true when the uplift is lower than the downforce. If it is higher then the grip from the downforce actually decreases with speed. Given that most of the cars are symmetrical, the uplift should equal the downforce, in which case you don't benefit from extra grip at all.

The only car that could have a downforce or uplift currently is the Juggernaut. It's also one of the reasons why I'd love to see a car with active aero on it.
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby mrjimp » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:03 am

Tathendal:

Ofcourse im holding down the gas button. But since the cars at those speeds are not driven by the wheels, there is no reason to spin out, even if my landing is not completely straight. Remember, cars spin out because the rear wheels apply to much power so they start skidding, and that makes the wheels frictionless against the ground, hence the backside of the cars slides away. Sure i can buy if its in the game for some challenge, but physicswise it does not compute.

Ryu:
Well.. mm sure, but then no car should actually have any downforce then?

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Tathendal
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Tathendal » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:02 am

I tried to test if there is wheel drive by braking in the air and then accelerating, to see if the wheels would start spinning. But the wheels did not stop in air when I press brake!? (neither normal or handbrake). Enormous glitch!!! DEVS FIX ASAP

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StickyBassline
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby StickyBassline » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:59 am

Tathendal wrote:I tried to test if there is wheel drive by braking in the air and then accelerating, to see if the wheels would start spinning. But the wheels did not stop in air when I press brake!? (neither normal or handbrake). Enormous glitch!!! DEVS FIX ASAP

The wheels aren't physically connected to the wehicle, they're connected through a magnetic link, and the car is powered by jet, so no the wheels don't stop spinning if you break in the air.
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Queadah
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Queadah » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:18 am

^ what StickyBassline said
Indeed Tathendal, it still makes sense ;)

@mrjimp: I'm not having trouble with the handling here. Like Tathendal said, I do have this feeling of semi-realistic control already which suits me fine currently. Occasional bumps and accidental flips aside, I'm on the camp that says handling is improving ^^'

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby WROB3L » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:04 am

StickyBassline wrote:
Tathendal wrote:I tried to test if there is wheel drive by braking in the air and then accelerating, to see if the wheels would start spinning. But the wheels did not stop in air when I press brake!? (neither normal or handbrake). Enormous glitch!!! DEVS FIX ASAP

The wheels aren't physically connected to the wehicle, they're connected through a magnetic link, and the car is powered by jet, so no the wheels don't stop spinning if you break in the air.


Queadah wrote:^ what StickyBassline said
Indeed Tathendal, it still makes sense ;)


Welp actually the electromagnetic brakes are in use for a long time so it really doesn`t xD I gotta agree with Tathendal, Wheels don`t have to be connected to brake. But still we have to remember that wheels are gyroscopes and rapidly stopping them midflight would spin the vehicle...
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Queadah
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Queadah » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:06 pm

<--- blabla about the realist physics case scenario incoming. Skip this entirely if you're allergic -->
Spoiler: show
Wheels are disconnected. Granted.
Now WROB3L is right (and incidentally Tathendal) our brake/hand-break is a magnetic lock. Holding handbrake SHOULD stop wheels after a very brief period of time in the air. If CE can make this without messing the whole car handling, I think it's a nice plus and a very good step towards more semi-realism.

Now brace yourself for the other side of that coin:
  • at these speeds, landing with tyres stopped might not be desirable
  • worst, keeping the brakes on while landing SHOULD mess you up
  • this is why nothing prevents cars to have a safety where sensors detect the vehicle airborne AND let the tyres in freewheel mode (what, arguably, is already the case)
So Tathendal, if you want the wheels to stop airborne, you'd HAVE TO accept that landing without letting go of the brakes will eff you up ;) (realism)
CE, your call ^^
Last edited by Queadah on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:15 pm

mrjimp wrote:Ryu:
Well.. mm sure, but then no car should actually have any downforce then?

Any car in GRIP that is perfectly symmetrical technically shouldn't have downforce indeed. Though in practice the fact that one side is facing ground and the other sky should impact that in some way, but given that I am no engineer in that department, I can't say how it would affect. Normal real life cars though are designed with the aero concepts in mind, which is why they do generate quite a bit of downforce and very little uplift (spoilers, splitters, diffusors, channels on the body, flaps etc.).

All that said though, the cars could benefit from a bit more downforce/grip on higher speeds, since they are sometimes a bit too prone to slide off the ceiling/corkscrew ramps. This is a futuristic arcade racer, so realism shouldn't take priority over more enjoyable gameplay.
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Tathendal
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Tathendal » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:10 pm

Thanks Quedah for clarifying this! I was wondering how brakes work if wheels are disconnected. Maybe the vehicles feature some sort of advanced ABS, even handbraking won't lock the tyres totally, they just slow down so much that a drift can begin... Or something...? :D This would make sense since wheels function as gyroscopes as WROB3L said!

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby mrjimp » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:00 pm

8 laps on sky track with the Dreadnaught (which seems to be less prone to glitches, and handling stuff)

http://plays.tv/video/589106eb5c4782ef8 ... grip-1-1-8

Notice the weak downforce when i try to follow the inverted right lane on the straight after the rampcurves.

Also notice on lap 8 the wierd respawn after I accidently blow myself out of the track by fireing a Rockit into the ground.

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Chris_CE » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:57 pm

I'm having trouble seeing anything out of the ordinary in that video clip, mrjimp. That said, I didn't watch the whole thing. If you could give me specific times that would help.

It seems different PC setups have different behavior when it comes to physics in this game, as some people have absolutely no issues and some have an incredible amount. Unfortunately, we have to go with the physics that work best for the most amount of people. This latest patch I haven't seen much negative feedback vs the previous version regarding vehicle issues.

Rob's done some more work though on physics that has made the cars more stable, and I'm hoping next patch will solve some issues for those experiencing a lot of them
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby mrjimp » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:24 am

Hmm. Have you considered frame rate to impact the physics? I remember when I played skyrim on 144Hz for the first time. The game couldn't even pass through the opening scene because the carriages bugged out and crashed (litteraly, flipped over) and got stuck.

Maybe a frame rate lock? I'm running on SLI, could that be a problem?

As for timings:

2.04: Running up the ramp, I get thrown out into oblivion for no apparent reason.
3.15: ramp again, this time bounces me out when entering the rise.
5.38: ramp exit, nice landing bounces me to high back in the air, and into the void.
7.34: Bump from nowhere in curb.
7:52: more bumps in curb that should not be there.
8:26: Doing a wheelie for no reason.
9.05: Accidentally blows myself out of the track and somehow respawns very very far ahead.

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby atv_123 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:33 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
mrjimp wrote:Ryu:
Well.. mm sure, but then no car should actually have any downforce then?

Any car in GRIP that is perfectly symmetrical technically shouldn't have downforce indeed. Though in practice the fact that one side is facing ground and the other sky should impact that in some way, but given that I am no engineer in that department, I can't say how it would affect. Normal real life cars though are designed with the aero concepts in mind, which is why they do generate quite a bit of downforce and very little uplift (spoilers, splitters, diffusors, channels on the body, flaps etc.).


While you are correct in your statement, even though the cars are symmetrical (most of them) they can still generate downforce. Take the wings of a stunt plane for example.

Image

A normal wing generates lift by making the air travel a greater distance over the top of the wing. This, in turn, lowers the pressure from the slower air below the wing and causes that higher pressure air below the wing to push up creating lift.

A stunt plane, on the other hand, needs to be capable of flying not only right side up, but upside down as well. This means that if they used normal wing profiles, they would be creating lift in the wrong direction while flying upside down and it would be pushing them toward the earth... not good.

Instead, a stunt plane creates its lift by pitching the nose of the wing skyward.

Image

This then redirects large quantities of air downward and, in an essence, propels the plane skyward... kind of like the hull of a boat on the water.

So if we apply this to the cars in GRIP, even if they arn't the most aerodynamical of shapes, we can see that if we just pitch the nose of the car downward slightly (no mater the side that the car is on) then, in theory, we should be able to generate downforce. Also, since we are so close to the ground and the cars are moving so fast, we get the added effect of a small vacuum created under the car in absence of the air that we just pitched skyward for downforce. This low pressure zone will also contribute to the overall downforce of the car helping to glue it even further to the road.

All this being said though... as soon as the body would be leveled (by a bump or otherwise) all of this downforce would immediately disappear... and, if you wish to imagine, the front gets propelled skyward, the car would take off just like a plane. All the better reason for active aerodynamics.

As for the asymmetrical shaped cars, it is actually possible (although admittedly not easy) to created identical amounts of lift or aerodynamic drag from completely different shapes, thus balancing out the asymmetrical cars handling.

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:40 pm

mrjimp wrote:Hmm. Have you considered frame rate to impact the physics? I remember when I played skyrim on 144Hz for the first time. The game couldn't even pass through the opening scene because the carriages bugged out and crashed (litteraly, flipped over) and got stuck.

Maybe a frame rate lock? I'm running on SLI, could that be a problem?

As for timings:

2.04: Running up the ramp, I get thrown out into oblivion for no apparent reason.
3.15: ramp again, this time bounces me out when entering the rise.
5.38: ramp exit, nice landing bounces me to high back in the air, and into the void.
7.34: Bump from nowhere in curb.
7:52: more bumps in curb that should not be there.
8:26: Doing a wheelie for no reason.
9.05: Accidentally blows myself out of the track and somehow respawns very very far ahead.

You're certainly getting the issues worse than anything I've seen on my end, or generally in the community with the latest patch, but there's nothing new here, really. These are things we've been battling for ages now

I don't see any issues with downforce anywhere. You're catching on the track geometry, which is why the car leaves the surface.

I've asked Rob about whether framerate should affect physics many times and he's said that it should not be case. But PhysX has done stranger things.

Grip doesn't support SLI, but that shouldn't be a problem. Could try disabling it. Also try turning off Vsync and setting the ingame framerate cap to 60
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby mrjimp » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:43 pm

Aight I disabled vsynch, and caped it at 60 fps. Also, I bought a new graphics card (1080 gtx, 8 gb), which means I no longer run on SLI.

I couldnt see any change. I guess that rules out FPS, VSynch and SLI?

Could it be that I'm running on win 7? Meaning I'm not running on DX 12, but DX 11?

Would my DXDiag.txt file help you guys?

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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:52 pm

No, the diag won't do anything. It appears as though it's the luck of the draw unfortunately. Some players have much different experiences than others. For instance, I get a ton of catching and some bouncing in the Steam build and Rob gets barely any. Some testers have terrible issues and others have minimal.

PhysX is a strange and fickle beast, and if it were a person I'd probably drop kick him in the face.
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby codemonkey » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:01 pm

mrjimp wrote:Well.. I dont know.?

Ups:
Feels more like a real car, doing 2 wheelies and stuff. Jumps are more fun.

Crashes with other cars. Yeah they feel better. Still to easy to shove cars around though.

Skidding in normal curves feels abit better.


Downs:
Landings. What the hell? Welcome to skid-for-no-reason galore. The cars (actuall I've only driven tha wallander so far, but several (30+) laps on alestra, island, sky and transport) are acting like very overpowered back wheel driven cars. Not jet powered. If you dont skid in air when doing a perfectly straight jump, there is no reason start a skid (meaning you actually start to spin out) when landing. No reason what so ever.

Rockits you fire make you spinout. So, How am I supposed to empty my weaponsbay without risking to blow myself away? Not cool.
(Btw, you have a bug when fireing rockits. The rockit inherits the movement of the car during the entire fire animation, which causes it to have to much velocity into curves, or down into the ground if you fire while jumping. Fixx that by not inherit any speed attributes except for the initial speed.)

Downforce?
Again downforce seems to have been reduced yet again. Some small bumps sends me off, while they shouldnt. Remember downforce increases with speed. Increases. Sky track is very very hard to play.

Havent tried the new car yet, but you guys must seriously start thinking about car balance. The warlander is way too good imho.

Also, while I'm at it, this game feels more and more like a random die toss. Doesnt matter how good you play, you can still just right out loose with no chance of winning. Skill anyone? After all when it all comes down to it it is a racing game?

Well, that'd my 2 cents.

Thanks. /Jimmi


Hi Jimmi,

there's no reason you should start a skid on landing unless your vehicle isn't aligned with your velocity vector - if it isn't, you're going skid both in GRIP and in the real world. There's nothing in the physics code that says "skid on landing".

On the very odd occasion where a missile explodes when you launch it, yeah you're going to get some splash damage. Most though, will just head off into the air if they don't explicitly have a target to follow.

Missiles also very explicitly inherit your velocity throughout the launch period. These vehicles are subject to such massive speed and G forces that if we didn't do this the missiles were next to useless in practice - they would almost always crash. You are right though in that we do need to do more work in improving the launch physics and this has been on the todo list for a while.

We haven't changed downforce for a long time. In fact, it's not used at all on straight and level ground - it never has been. Downforce in GRIP is an artificial construct that we generate for the sole purpose of gluing you to walls and ceilings when your speed is high enough. The gravity in GRIP is already massively amplified so to have more forces combining with it, especially at these speeds, just adds to the complication of trying to make the vehicles drivable (remember that in the real world a vehicle travelling at 500kph is essentially undrivable - you just point in in the right direction and try very, very hard not to change that direction). Adding a ton of genuine downforce just adds more collision problems and hardens the suspension to the point where it becomes pointless.

All of the vehicles in the game have been balanced, and in fact the Warlander isn't the best one. If you could see the stats, you'd know that they are actually pretty close to one another with a relatively small performance range to work within. Sure the speedsters are faster off the line, but you watch the tanks overtake them over distance.

You're right in that the game can be punishing and it's largely the speed that makes it so - and speed is something we can never give you guys enough of it seems. However, if you play the game enough, will be become better and have a good chance of coming first in every race even in hard difficulty. If you play on Medium or Easy though, you should win a lot more often than you are.
Rob
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Re: New physics...?! wtf?!

Postby codemonkey » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:08 pm

While we appreciate the enthusiasm, but I feel I ought to say that all the real-world physics lessons here are moot. Almost every time we've tried to introduce real-world physics into GRIP (and trust me we have) it has messed things up quite royally. Physics at 500kph+ is not the same as physics at 100kph. If the physics were real, the only track we'd offer in the game is a nice salt-flat run at Bonneville because that's all it would be good for. Just know that we're working very hard to give you great speed with great handling, but to do that we have to pretty much disregard the physics lessons and construct some very custom solutions.
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