Industry.

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mrjimp
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Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:09 am

Alright guys.

I'm really trying to do this as good as I possibly can. This might be a wall of text, so please bear with me. (roar)

I've been playing on industry a lot lately. Its for only one reason. The new AI made this track really hard to win on. (classic race).

First obvious PROS:
The EMP is not used as often! Super! Races are much more action packed and fun!

So here is the deal.

If you get ahead early you win easily. If you end up in back of the pack on the first lap, you're in for a hardship and I can never see anyone win on this track from this position doing only 3-4 laps. I play on 8 laps, and I still cant beat it from this position.

Why is this?

Well, I'm gonna list a few reasons, they all work together to form up that "ALL VS YOU" feeling.

    The lead AI is mostly uninterrupted and is nowadays very very fast.

    All the cars seems to save at least one power up to throw in your face when you catch up to them.

    AI' cars are more about blocking you, than actually stay on the track and get a good race path. (this still especially goes for crashed racers getting back on track. They rather block you instead of getting back in the race)

    You cant no more safely empty your weapons bay, and might be stuck with 2 rockets, and therefore miss out on valuable power ups, such as shield or speed.


Alright, so sure, the game should be difficult right?

But the main question should be: Is the player having fun?!

I can agree that even though I'm not winning I'm having some great moments. Like when you're finally caught up to the leader on the last lap and you're side by side on the ramp....

But in the whole, all this is not a nice feeling. All those things combined make me feel 2 things:

Its all other racers VS me (i seldom see them fighting among themselves, and they always have rockets, guns, or mines when I'm around, + the block AI)

I have my hands tied behind my back cause I cant drop useless weapons when I need to.

I like the idea that you shouldn't be able to dumb fire rockets into the wall and not get affected by it, but I don't like it that you have no way of ditching power ups you don't need.


So what are my constructive ideas to try and fix this:

Make it possible to drop, discard, destroy, or any other way to get rid of weapons you don't need from you weapons bay without fireing them. Variations can be that you actually do drop the power up on the tarmac for others to pick up and eventually use against you (or other racers). (timer until the power up is gone?)

Make the shield have a timer until it runs out. This way it will be one power up to save and use skillfully. Also, the leader, while saving a shield for that assassin that will eventually hit him, will get access to less power ups along the road.

Make the AI's use more power ups vs each other, and thus make them fight more with each other.

Well, I've been going on about the block AI before, you know what I think about it. But for clarity: Limit the block AI. Only use it when there is a actual race battle -> Meaning its when one car is approaching from behind with similar speed. Do NOT block when you just crashed, or are crashing. Do NOT block if reaction time on the block is less than <sometime>. Do NOT block if the block most likely will result in a crash.


"Keeping the pack together"

As a last thing I know you've been discussing how to keep the pack together, and EMP beeing one of those tools for doing so (assassin being the other one). I don't believe in "slowing down the leader" strategy because it makes the skill of the leader irrelevant. And skill should be relevant.

I think there is another way to go, and thats via the speed pads. Make the speed pads boost better for players that are behind. If you miss a speed pad, no boost for you <- this make skill matter. A really bad player will not receive any extra boost compared to a skilled leader. However, an equally skilled player will catch just as many pads as the leader, and hence will be given more speed. Given that he actually can handle the extra speed (and not crash because of it) he will eventually reach the leader. its almost like catch up, but it requires you to actually use speed pads to get the bonus.

How much extra boost should players receieve? Assume speed pads give 100% boost (from some set amount). One formulae of extra boost depnding on position could then be myBoost = 100 + (5*(myPosition-1))
This would give the second car an extra 5% boost from the pad, and the last (10nth) car an extra 45%.

Anyhow, those are my humble opinions.

Keep it up guys!

WROB3L
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Re: Industry.

Postby WROB3L » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:12 am

Asshole mode on.

mrjimp wrote:
Alright, so sure, the game should be difficult right?


Yeah, it should and it is. Rightfully so.

mrjimp wrote:But the main question should be: Is the player having fun?!

I can agree that even though I'm not winning I'm having some great moments. Like when you're finally caught up to the leader on the last lap and you're side by side on the ramp....

But in the whole, all this is not a nice feeling. All those things combined make me feel 2 things:

Its all other racers VS me (i seldom see them fighting among themselves, and they always have rockets, guns, or mines when I'm around, + the block AI)


Yeah thats kinda true, They should fight more between themselves.

mrjimp wrote:
I have my hands tied behind my back cause I cant drop useless weapons when I need to.

I like the idea that you shouldn't be able to dumb fire rockets into the wall and not get affected by it, but I don't like it that you have no way of ditching power ups you don't need.


F*CK NO! It`s not a game about holding acceleration and going as fast as possible. You gotta use your brain. That`s what makes it so good. If you don`t need an item, just use it! I can`t see anything wrong with that.

mrjimp wrote:So what are my constructive ideas to try and fix this:

Make it possible to drop, discard, destroy, or any other way to get rid of weapons you don't need from you weapons bay without fireing them. Variations can be that you actually do drop the power up on the tarmac for others to pick up and eventually use against you (or other racers). (timer until the power up is gone?)


I`m not gonna repeat myself.

mrjimp wrote:
Make the shield have a timer until it runs out. This way it will be one power up to save and use skillfully. Also, the leader, while saving a shield for that assassin that will eventually hit him, will get access to less power ups along the road.


Another f*ck no from me. That`s the point of the shield. It is supposed to PROTECT YOU. It doesnt make sense when it just turns off... And im pretty sure its gonna stay like that.

mrjimp wrote:Make the AI's use more power ups vs each other, and thus make them fight more with each other.


gotta agree on that.

Sry for being so harsh but thats the truth.
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Re: Industry.

Postby FrostyPL » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:27 pm

@WROB3L, +1

mrjimp
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Re: Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:25 pm

WROB3L wrote:If you don`t need an item, just use it! I can`t see anything wrong with that.


Nah, except I get blown out of the track if I do. Before the last patch I wouldn't see the use if it either, but as it is now, I do need it very much. You still need to use your brain to determine if you need the pickup or not. Cant see how this changes the game to "just hold your accelerator button" ?

WROB3L wrote:It is supposed to PROTECT YOU. It doesnt make sense when it just turns off.


Well, it does still protect you, during the time until timeout. It would make perfect sense if the shield came with its on powerpack. Once started duration is <time> seconds, then its used up. It IS more skill with a shield like that, but sure, not everyone will like it.


Oh and forgot the rubble and stuff. One little barrel makes you loose the race? Not funny. Keep it in, but make it affect the car a lot less please.

WROB3L
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Re: Industry.

Postby WROB3L » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:28 pm

mrjimp wrote:
WROB3L wrote:If you don`t need an item, just use it! I can`t see anything wrong with that.


Nah, except I get blown out of the track if I do. Before the last patch I wouldn't see the use if it either, but as it is now, I do need it very much. You still need to use your brain to determine if you need the pickup or not. Cant see how this changes the game to "just hold your accelerator button" ?

WROB3L wrote:It is supposed to PROTECT YOU. It doesnt make sense when it just turns off.


Well, it does still protect you, during the time until timeout. It would make perfect sense if the shield came with its on powerpack. Once started duration is <time> seconds, then its used up. It IS more skill with a shield like that, but sure, not everyone will like it.


Oh and forgot the rubble and stuff. One little barrel makes you loose the race? Not funny. Keep it in, but make it affect the car a lot less please.



K. One question. Have you ever played Rollcage?
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in Image 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD

TheOnLY
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Re: Industry.

Postby TheOnLY » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:34 pm

I still have no issues getting rid of stuff I don't want. You obviously cant shot it in a banked turn...

WROB3L
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Re: Industry.

Postby WROB3L » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:41 pm

TheOnLY wrote:I still have no issues getting rid of stuff I don't want. You obviously cant shot it in a banked turn...


Exactly. Thats how physics work.
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in Image 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD

mrjimp
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Re: Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:59 pm

WROB3L wrote:K. One question. Have you ever played Rollcage?


Sure. Why?

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Re: Industry.

Postby Broscar » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:41 pm

"Industry." isn't a descriptive title. You'd probably get more replies (not just wrob3l doing the (roar) thing back to you) with a title better suited to your post.

Next, you're better off contributing to existing threads and voicing your opinion in those rather than dumping a large wall of text in it's own thread.
Developer poll on the ability to drop pickups.
Developer poll on the functionality of the shield, including having it on a timer.

As for the AI:
There's no "blocking" behaviour; the AI tries to recover and if it can't, it happens to stall sometimes. You're just running into them yourself, which is what happens in other racing games as well if your opponents stand still/crash.
Still, the current situation is an undesirable symptom considering the length of time these cars can form a blockade, but that's the nature of an early access title that really is early access.

As for the catchup suggestion:
I like it, sorta. I agree that constantly barraging the leader is counterproductive and frustrating and just because Mario Kart/Rollcage favours that approach, does not mean it's a perfect one.
Your implementation will boost the speed of those in last place, but like you said, that's only beneficial if said players can handle that speed, otherwise it will only serve to frustrate them. This is a problem Rollcage had; the cars in last place handle more aggressively (faster, better steering) and it can deter the less experienced players before they get a chance to git gud.
Considering it only affects the speed pads and not the overall speed though, I figure this is very worth experimenting with.

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Re: Industry.

Postby WROB3L » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:55 pm

mrjimp wrote:
WROB3L wrote:K. One question. Have you ever played Rollcage?


Sure. Why?


Then please play it again, you will understand what im talking about...
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in Image 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD

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Re: Industry.

Postby VooDooQky » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:03 am

I have mixed feelings towards your ideas :|

For starters , it is totally doable to win a race from last place on Yuri Industrial in 3-4 laps (even less). I can make a video proof of that if you want.

Why are you stuck with rockets/other weaps? Don't need them? Shoot 'em away at a safe position. Never had problem with that, even if missile explosion affects me. Gotta know when & where to release. This might require a lil' bit of skill and experience, wouldn't it? Dropping unused pickups, making it free for enemy would be just plain boring + stupid, since you are cutting the tree branch you are standing on with that.

As soon as destructibles come into play, there won't be as much "dumb fires" I guess. We see the general idea already manifesting in the exploding barrels, however they are yet to function in a way it could be used as an advantage to the player.

I always play against AI on hard, and can say, yes they are more focused on taking you down with weaps (even keeping pickups in stock for you, but hey, it's hard AI after all), and blocking your path. But when they crash, I think they just want to recover back on track. Since the cars are big and they are stumbling a bit & speed difference, you have to calculate in that you or others might have a good chance crashing into them. Happens the same when you do crash too... For them, YOU are the one blocking the path.

I don't mean to polish myself, but actually I am bored with the AI as it is right now, since they make no competition, but I can guess there are some others with similar amount of playtime, feeling the same way about that. Recently as I noticed the AI excels mostly on Transport and Skytrack, there they provide a lil' bit more challenge to catch up to, if they get to lead far ahead. If they would start to fight between themselves more, it would just made the players situation even easier.

The timer on powerup, well, yes, that's one thing I'm debating with myself about too. You made good points about that weakening the leading player, but on the other side, sometimes even with it being permanent, I do swallow in some rocket & gattler fire, and that's just against the AI, firing on sight. Imagine this in MP, where others are syncing their assasins & scorpions & EMP's together. The 1 shot perma shield ain't that OP anymore, right?

Keeping the pack together: i'd like to add mines as a tool for that too. Being in a back position, placing them strategically can severely slow down the upcoming leader car as well, as they either run into them, or sliding down from their optimal route, trying to avoid.

Dunno what to think about the speed pads idea tho, but it feels unfair towards the foremost players. Well, right now starting positions aren't fair too. Be it either luck, which plays a major factor in this game, or pure skill, good players will perform good, bad players will perform bad, regardless of the speedpads bonus, that one is true. Might be really a good idea keeping the pack together.

Still, thanks for sharing your toughts with us!

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Re: Industry.

Postby Queadah » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:49 am

Ahaha, God knows this community isn't full of massive d*cks ^^... but yeah, ahem... I'm with Broscar (existing threads and whatnot) and WROB3L mostly. The boost pad idea, I'm quite unsure really :/, but as the saying goes, there's only one way to know... ;)

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Re: Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:08 pm

Thanks for the polls.

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Re: Industry.

Postby VooDooQky » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:05 pm

mrjimp wrote:Alright guys.

So here is the deal.

If you get ahead early you win easily. If you end up in back of the pack on the first lap, you're in for a hardship and I can never see anyone win on this track from this position doing only 3-4 laps. I play on 8 laps, and I still cant beat it from this position.


Guess what...


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Re: Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:55 am

VooDooQky wrote:Guess what...


I'm guessing you cant beat dumb luck....

How did I do?

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Re: Industry.

Postby VooDooQky » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:13 am

Ah yea, I should've expected that, even tho I consider this a rather unlucky run due to clogged up tunnels and my own clumsyness. If it weren't for that, even 1 lap would be enuff ^_^
But hey, if that was out of sheer luck, I'd try again if it's still doable with a bit worse conditions :/

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Re: Industry.

Postby mrjimp » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:58 pm

Broscar wrote:(not just wrob3l doing the (roar) thing back to you)


I have to ask, is this why people are giving me such sh*tty attitude (Like "Asshole mode on.", etc)? Did people take offence of the "BEAR with me (roar)" scentence?

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Re: Industry.

Postby TheOnLY » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:31 pm

I don't know why there is such a harsh tone to be honest, and while don't agree with most of your points, your opinion is well presented and justified.
The only point I see is that your propositions are formulated as definitive statements sounding like you think they are the only solution rather than one of many possible solutions. I think that's more of a language barrier thing, though.

Regarding the AI, i don't think they purposely save weapons just for the player, but they seem to rarely overtake each other without one of them crashing, so they cant use their power up they kept for defending their position.
I also don't think the AI blocks the way on purpose, they just return to racing line immediately, blocking it because they still have no speed. while a human player would rather say out of the way and get back to speed first.

I think a change in behavior of the AI should be considered though, if the AI is reworked / imrproved.

I think the boost pad idea would be worth exploring.
Last edited by TheOnLY on Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Industry.

Postby Broscar » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:35 pm

Wrob3l's "asshole mode on" was a comment on how he's aware of his harshness, and though I find his choice of wording poor, he actively participates in the discussion and he's free to voice his opinions and arguments. He even agreed with you on AI having to fight more among themselves.

VooDooQky recording and uploading a video to debunk one of your statements, after writing a lengthy in-depth reply to your post, shows he respects you and the subjects you're discussing enough to spend time on them.

Having people disagree with your suggestions doesn't mean they're just giving you sh*t attitude or attacking you as a person, mrjimp. That's just the nature of discussion (on a forum).
It also doesn't magically invalidate your suggestions or opinion either. Every voice counts, including yours, so please feel free to stick around and join the campfire.

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Re: Industry.

Postby WROB3L » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:33 pm

Broscar wrote:Wrob3l's "asshole mode on" was a comment on how he's aware of his harshness, and though I find his choice of wording poor, he actively participates in the discussion and he's free to voice his opinions and arguments. He even agreed with you on AI having to fight more among themselves.


Coz i`m edgy af boiiiiii xD Nah for real it`s just my opinion (and my opinions mean sh*t on this forum :lol:) , don`t take it as me trying to offend everybody. It`s a rollcage successor after all, let`s try to make it as close to the original as possible.
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in Image 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD


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