Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

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Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby tjgcrush » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:47 pm

I've heard multiple people say that the game is now too easy for the moment, here are a few reasons why

No high engine speed

No high Weapon damage/ upgrades

car physics should be put back to 1.0.5 version

very loose vehicle handling while landing a jump "spinning motions"


hopefully changes will be made in the future
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:46 am

Come on man, have you though about the new guys, they need to learn the game before the difficulty turns up.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby TheOnLY » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:35 am

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:Come on man, have you though about the new guys, they need to learn the game before the difficulty turns up.


So they will ahve to learn again once it changes?

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby KazzyMac » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:23 pm

TheOnLY wrote:
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:Come on man, have you though about the new guys, they need to learn the game before the difficulty turns up.


So they will ahve to learn again once it changes?


Learning to play the game at a lower speed first and then a higher speed is easier than just playing the game at the higher speed. Much of the skill comes from learning to drive the car/tracks and you can't do that easily if everything is whizzing by at 700km/h. That's why 'beginner' cars are always slow with good handling, to help people become consistent enough to tackle the higher difficulties later on ;)
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Carnage » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:52 pm

I agree that the high power needs to come back, I feel like it may have been removed to hide the physics issues at that speed (the invisible objects), but I still think it needs to be there, my will to play is somewhat diminished at this safer speed, hell I'd play turbo power if I could (level 4 power?)

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby codemonkey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:54 am

Carnage wrote:I agree that the high power needs to come back, I feel like it may have been removed to hide the physics issues at that speed (the invisible objects), but I still think it needs to be there, my will to play is somewhat diminished at this safer speed, hell I'd play turbo power if I could (level 4 power?)

High speed has been removed for many reasons. The first of which being, you're just not meant to have it at this stage - it was only ever meant to be a novelty showing potential for very early access play. When we implement real game progression in the near-term future, you guys are going to feel quite a sense of loss where you have to start over again to build up to those higher speeds. So consider 1.0.6 a bit of cold turkey in preparation for that.

We've got a *lot* of work to do on control, steering, handling, catchup, weapon balance, game progression, AI and yes, the bloody physics (an omnipresent thorn in my side). All of this is hard work, and it's made significantly harder by having such a large speed range of which these things need to be made to operate and be consequently balanced. This is all going to take time, and until then, we don't want to invite complaints that such and such doesn't work well, with us spending time in figuring out why, only to find that you're playing the game at maximum speed where we're developing it at lower speed (as it's currently meant to be played). High speed is something we need to work up to, and this is absolutely the goal - this is the author of Neo-mode talking here.

To give you a firm example, take the Assassin missile. We've been hearing stories about how it never seems to reach you, and that too many are in flight at the same time. This is something that quite confused me at first as I felt it tracked and navigated to the target in good time and rarely more than one airborne at once. It was only later when playing the game at high speed I realised that the leader was just moving too goddam fast for the Assassin the make good progress in heading towards them. And in that time, more missiles were being launched. So when they did eventually hit home, it felt like a hail of sh#t-storm had just descended upon them and felt really quite unfair.

You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple. We have some very tight areas on some of these tracks with harsh corners and very small areas to work within. Speeding the missile up would just make it smash into these corners. Making it corner harder often isn't the answer as 1. it may look just too unbelievable and 2. cornering harder may well not help anyway as the navigation mechanism also needs to be addressed which trust me, is a complex piece of software engineering.

Now that we're opening up to a whole new audience in Steam EA, these things have become very important and we need to manage them professionally. Taking that highest-speed option away, for now at least, was a positive move towards that.

But hey, if you ask me nicely, maybe a hidden "mynameisneo" cheat could be conjured up for the more insane among you out there? ;-)
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Falkerz » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:24 am

codemonkey wrote:
Carnage wrote:I agree that the high power needs to come back, I feel like it may have been removed to hide the physics issues at that speed (the invisible objects), but I still think it needs to be there, my will to play is somewhat diminished at this safer speed, hell I'd play turbo power if I could (level 4 power?)

High speed has been removed for many reasons. The first of which being, you're just not meant to have it at this stage - it was only ever meant to be a novelty showing potential for very early access play. When we implement real game progression in the near-term future, you guys are going to feel quite a sense of loss where you have to start over again to build up to those higher speeds. So consider 1.0.6 a bit of cold turkey in preparation for that.

We've got a *lot* of work to do on control, steering, handling, catchup, weapon balance, game progression, AI and yes, the bloody physics (an omnipresent thorn in my side). All of this is hard work, and it's made significantly harder by having such a large speed range of which these things need to be made to operate and be consequently balanced. This is all going to take time, and until then, we don't want to invite complaints that such and such doesn't work well, with us spending time in figuring out why, only to find that you're playing the game at maximum speed where we're developing it at lower speed (as it's currently meant to be played). High speed is something we need to work up to, and this is absolutely the goal - this is the author of Neo-mode talking here.

To give you a firm example, take the Assassin missile. We've been hearing stories about how it never seems to reach you, and that too many are in flight at the same time. This is something that quite confused me at first as I felt it tracked and navigated to the target in good time and rarely more than one airborne at once. It was only later when playing the game at high speed I realised that the leader was just moving too goddam fast for the Assassin the make good progress in heading towards them. And in that time, more missiles were being launched. So when they did eventually hit home, it felt like a hail of sh#t-storm had just descended upon them and felt really quite unfair.

You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple. We have some very tight areas on some of these tracks with harsh corners and very small areas to work within. Speeding the missile up would just make it smash into these corners. Making it corner harder often isn't the answer as 1. it may look just too unbelievable and 2. cornering harder may well not help anyway as the navigation mechanism also needs to be addressed which trust me, is a complex piece of software engineering.

Now that we're opening up to a whole new audience in Steam EA, these things have become very important and we need to manage them professionally. Taking that highest-speed option away, for now at least, was a positive move towards that.

But hey, if you ask me nicely, maybe a hidden "mynameisneo" cheat could be conjured up for the more insane among you out there? ;-)


I understand and agree with everything here, but have always been more partial to Morpheus' wash of handling things.

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Raion » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:16 am

codemonkey wrote:You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple.


Indeed. It should just fly backwards instead. :P

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby codemonkey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:55 am

Raion wrote:
codemonkey wrote:You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple.


Indeed. It should just fly backwards instead. :P

That too, also brings problems which first need resolutions.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:12 am

KazzyMac wrote:
TheOnLY wrote:
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:Come on man, have you though about the new guys, they need to learn the game before the difficulty turns up.


So they will ahve to learn again once it changes?


Learning to play the game at a lower speed first and then a higher speed is easier than just playing the game at the higher speed. Much of the skill comes from learning to drive the car/tracks and you can't do that easily if everything is whizzing by at 700km/h. That's why 'beginner' cars are always slow with good handling, to help people become consistent enough to tackle the higher difficulties later on ;)


Thanks Kazzy for explaining it.

Raion wrote:
codemonkey wrote:You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple.


Indeed. It should just fly backwards instead. :P


Codemonkey is right and i can understand that. More then 50% of gamers has no clue how game development works. they think it's easy and it's only need a lot of money and time, but that's not true. Game development needs people how understand hard coding, game design and of course managers they put there souls in to there game (except Electronic Arts and some others), they put a lot of time and hard work in to it, what the normal gamer don't understand. The only thing what we can do is point them to the right diraction (to not suffer the same faith like athor company like Westwood and Bullfrog) and suppert them as much as we can and respect their work.

If the Assassin fly the opposit direction it easy to spot don't you think?
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The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby codemonkey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:31 am

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:If the Assassin fly the opposit direction it easy to spot don't you think?

I'm not even saying it shouldn't fly in reverse - I actually think we should do that at appropriate occasions. All I'm saying is that making all this stuff work well takes time, and I'm the only coder on the project right now - my workload is enormous.

So, all in good time fellas, all in good time.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:33 am

He put it exactly how he needed to put it, yup.

Having had some input in game development (both as a major alpha/beta tester and with my own hand in coding/development in my own attempt of a Rollcage-inspired game with a long-time friend), I know exactly how saying and knowing how something needs to behave and actually -getting- it to behave are two different challenges.

Fortunately the majority of us here are intelligent enough or at least mature enough to know this ;) but Ye Average Joe on Steam might not comprehend how difficult game development actually is and that demanding something is easier said than done. How many times can you all think of where a 'small' update on a video game to fix bugs has ended up causing more bugs even though nothing else got changed? :P


I never did get the cars to handle properly. Codemonkey has done more in a few months than I managed in seven years, dude's a legend ;)
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:07 am

Yeah, most of the issues you see in the game we already know about, it's just a matter of priorities when it comes to fixing stuff. Rob's got a lot on his plate, but we're looking to give him some extra help starting this month.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby ApexAzimuth » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:38 am

codemonkey wrote:
Carnage wrote:I agree that the high power needs to come back, I feel like it may have been removed to hide the physics issues at that speed (the invisible objects), but I still think it needs to be there, my will to play is somewhat diminished at this safer speed, hell I'd play turbo power if I could (level 4 power?)

High speed has been removed for many reasons. The first of which being, you're just not meant to have it at this stage - it was only ever meant to be a novelty showing potential for very early access play. When we implement real game progression in the near-term future, you guys are going to feel quite a sense of loss where you have to start over again to build up to those higher speeds. So consider 1.0.6 a bit of cold turkey in preparation for that.

We've got a *lot* of work to do on control, steering, handling, catchup, weapon balance, game progression, AI and yes, the bloody physics (an omnipresent thorn in my side). All of this is hard work, and it's made significantly harder by having such a large speed range of which these things need to be made to operate and be consequently balanced. This is all going to take time, and until then, we don't want to invite complaints that such and such doesn't work well, with us spending time in figuring out why, only to find that you're playing the game at maximum speed where we're developing it at lower speed (as it's currently meant to be played). High speed is something we need to work up to, and this is absolutely the goal - this is the author of Neo-mode talking here.

To give you a firm example, take the Assassin missile. We've been hearing stories about how it never seems to reach you, and that too many are in flight at the same time. This is something that quite confused me at first as I felt it tracked and navigated to the target in good time and rarely more than one airborne at once. It was only later when playing the game at high speed I realised that the leader was just moving too goddam fast for the Assassin the make good progress in heading towards them. And in that time, more missiles were being launched. So when they did eventually hit home, it felt like a hail of sh#t-storm had just descended upon them and felt really quite unfair.

You might say "well just speed the Assassin up" but it's not that simple. We have some very tight areas on some of these tracks with harsh corners and very small areas to work within. Speeding the missile up would just make it smash into these corners. Making it corner harder often isn't the answer as 1. it may look just too unbelievable and 2. cornering harder may well not help anyway as the navigation mechanism also needs to be addressed which trust me, is a complex piece of software engineering.

Now that we're opening up to a whole new audience in Steam EA, these things have become very important and we need to manage them professionally. Taking that highest-speed option away, for now at least, was a positive move towards that.

But hey, if you ask me nicely, maybe a hidden "mynameisneo" cheat could be conjured up for the more insane among you out there? ;-)


Agreed strongly with all of the above.

I haven't played any of the pre-EA builds, but I feel like the speed on medium is in a really good place. I could only imagine high engine speed working well if it just increases the maximum speed of the cars, leaving the acceleration mostly where it is. If any faster than that, then the cars are gonna be airborne half of the time.

The assassin missile's speed and visuals are FANTASTIC. Missiles in general were designed so SO well, huge props to you guys for how you set those up. They're devastating when they hit, but they take CONTROL (a precious thing in Grip) away from the victim, not speed; which is exactly how I thought they should have worked in Rollcage. You've balanced the mechanic by making the missiles somewhat unstable until their thrust peaks a second or so after being deployed, which means the player needs to give them clearance to fire successfully. Choosing when to strike a victim is also a big factor in making them effective (Blasting an opponent in a tunnel section may just HELP the victim).

The issue with assassin's piling up isn't a problem with assassins, but rather with position spread. Racers all get far too spread out, which sounds like an issue that will be -very- challenging for you guys to fix, because every variable factors into how that plays out. The catch up mechanic is awkward, but with lots of fine tuning and feedback over the next year, you guys will nail it, i'm sure.

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby WROB3L » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:51 am

ApexAzimuth wrote:Agreed strongly with all of the above.

I haven't played any of the pre-EA builds, but I feel like the speed on medium is in a really good place. I could only imagine high engine speed working well if it just increases the maximum speed of the cars, leaving the acceleration mostly where it is. If any faster than that, then the cars are gonna be airborne half of the time.

The assassin missile's speed and visuals are FANTASTIC. Missiles in general were designed so SO well, huge props to you guys for how you set those up. They're devastating when they hit, but they take CONTROL (a precious thing in Grip) away from the victim, not speed; which is exactly how I thought they should have worked in Rollcage. You've balanced the mechanic by making the missiles somewhat unstable until their thrust peaks a second or so after being deployed, which means the player needs to give them clearance to fire successfully. Choosing when to strike a victim is also a big factor in making them effective (Blasting an opponent in a tunnel section may just HELP the victim).

The issue with assassin's piling up isn't a problem with assassins, but rather with position spread. Racers all get far too spread out, which sounds like an issue that will be -very- challenging for you guys to fix, because every variable factors into how that plays out. The catch up mechanic is awkward, but with lots of fine tuning and feedback over the next year, you guys will nail it, i'm sure.


The high speed in the Pre-EA was the only fun setting to be honest. It was glitchy yes but it was sooooooo fun, And no. they were`nt flying everywhere... cars were drivable, pretty much nothing changed only speed (min-500 max-700 km/h) and acceleration (they were like rockets <3)
Well the only problem was that... well assassins couldnt catch up with the leader, and when they did it was a sh*t-storm <33 I loved seeing 4 assassins passing me to go for a leader <3
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby ApexAzimuth » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:54 pm

from watching some of Potterman's vids on youtube of 1.0.5 gameplay, It really doesn't look that much faster. They accelerate a little more quickly, but even now on medium, you have the capacity to put yourself on ridiculous ballistic trajectories. Looks fine to me.

That said, I certainly wouldn't want to try and learn a track on high, especially not with only ~4 hours of game experience. Unless I wanted some laughs.

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby WROB3L » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:01 pm

ApexAzimuth wrote:from watching some of Potterman's vids on youtube of 1.0.5 gameplay, It really doesn't look that much faster. They accelerate a little more quickly, but even now on medium, you have the capacity to put yourself on ridiculous ballistic trajectories. Looks fine to me.

That said, I certainly wouldn't want to try and learn a track on high, especially not with only ~4 hours of game experience. Unless I wanted some laughs.


I played only on high, it should be played like that.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:07 pm

ApexAzimuth wrote:from watching some of Potterman's vids on youtube of 1.0.5 gameplay, It really doesn't look that much faster.

It's just 50-80 more kph, but believe me, when you play it you feel it.

Many times in medium speed I feel like "why don't i go faster ?", and it feels frustrating because you keep pushing that acceleration button and yet nothing happens.

I understand the devs decision, but yeah part of me would like High Engine to be brought back. Just for the sake of not reaching the max speed 75% of the time.
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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby ApexAzimuth » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:13 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:
ApexAzimuth wrote:from watching some of Potterman's vids on youtube of 1.0.5 gameplay, It really doesn't look that much faster.

It's just 50-80 more kph, but believe me, when you play it you feel it.

Many times in medium speed I feel like "why don't i go faster ?", and it feels frustrating because you keep pushing that acceleration button and yet nothing happens.

I understand the devs decision, but yeah part of me would like High Engine to be brought back. Just for the sake of not reaching the max speed 75% of the time.


I can definitely see that.

After getting used to the cars after a couple hours, I got the sense that the car's horsepower drops off at max rpm in top gear, and the car can't accelerate through air resistance. I guess I wouldn't get that sense at all on high engine power.

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Re: Addressing current status of the game and complaints from other players

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:05 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:
ApexAzimuth wrote:from watching some of Potterman's vids on youtube of 1.0.5 gameplay, It really doesn't look that much faster.

It's just 50-80 more kph, but believe me, when you play it you feel it.

Many times in medium speed I feel like "why don't i go faster ?", and it feels frustrating because you keep pushing that acceleration button and yet nothing happens.

I understand the devs decision, but yeah part of me would like High Engine to be brought back. Just for the sake of not reaching the max speed 75% of the time.


I feel the same. In medium it feels like the game is more about maintaining speed. Cars reach their max speed in every straight of the tracks.
Also the game feels kind of "crippled" as I NEVER have to brake or release the throttle. I could just glue down the key and still perform the same. I cant f*ck up by being too fast.
Braking and speed management is a crucial part of a racing game.
Also these buggy landing occur at every speed setting, but i feel that they happen less often with higher fps.
The only good thing i can see the AI performing better at medium setting. They are still not fully competitive though


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