Making the game more accessible for new players

Here you give us specific suggestions on how you think the private release can be improved.

This isn't for bug reports, this is for features (example: wrong way indicator)
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:56 am

VooDooQky wrote:Rollcage games had some encouraging text, regarding on what position did you finish the race. Would be nice to see them in GRIP. But with more variations for each position :)

Reading "Excellent" because you finished 2nd on a 2-player race is priceless

Joke aside, the worst message in Rollcage is "no luck" - it never says that you're bad, it always supposes that you can do better next time.
That's the impression that all players should have when playing any game.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Django » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:07 pm

Ah those texts. I never found them very engouraging to be onest. But its better than without them.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby TheOnLY » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:16 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Wait, let me get this right. You wanted to compare times that AI scores and you left pickups enabled? Next time try it without pickups enabled to see actual times. Because the more you blow up, the slower you'll be even if you're actually driving faster. You know the saying "slow and steady wins the race" ? That's what happened in your case.
Less aggressive AI means that they won't target the player as often, leaving the player more chance to blow AI out and scamper away, rather than being bombarded constantly by EMPs, missiles and Assassins and what not. On easy you don't have to worry about AI shooting you (as much), but on Hard, you do have to, which effectively slows you and everyone else down.


Well it is how most players will play the game, with pick ups enabled. And a completely new player will likely have problems with keeping up with the AI or catching up to them when they fall behind, not with it fighting back when they want to overtake.

And i did the same with no power ups just for you.
Spoiler: show
Easy AI:
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Hard AI:
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Guess what? Easy AI was still slightly faster. But even if you say measuring inaccuracy is responsible for the lead, do you really think it is fair towards new players to make them face an AI that can drive at least just as fast as the hard AI made for expert players?

Django wrote:I like how it was done in Spec Ops: The Line. If you play a section over and over and don't win, the game asks you to try a lower setting.

I always get mad at those messages in Super Mario Maker. To me it feels like the devs just wanted to mock me for not being able to beat the highest difficulty in just a few tries. There is a reason i decided to play "Super Expert", where you have 100 Lives to complete only 8 Levels. This message might be appropriate for long a long campain , but i don't think it is necessary for short races.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Django » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:14 pm

TheOnLY wrote:Guess what? Easy AI was still slightly faster. But even if you say measuring inaccuracy is responsible for the lead, do you really think it is fair towards new players to make them face an AI that can drive at least just as fast as the hard AI made for expert players?


The easy AI is even faster :o :shock: :o

I agree easy AI shouldnt be that capable.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:04 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:You can make it a challenging game with a noob mode. You seem to think that as soon as you put a noob mode it invalidates all challenge, but it's not necessarily true. Noob modes are not evil. If you have a campaign mode that starts very easy (noob-like), and then go medium (newbie-like) and finally hard (challenge), you will have catered the game to both types of players.

Of course, you would keep the current features in arcade mode where you can choose the AI difficulty etc.. But it wouldn't hurt to have a mini tutorial with different levels, noob or medium (a bit like Rocket League). And in the long run, you replace the tutorial with a proper campaign that goes on increasing difficulty.

I don't know if you have ever played the Soulcalibur series, but the campaign starts very easy (it's hard not to win a fight), and the more you progress, the harder it becomes, to the point that to finish the campaign you need to be very good at the game - but if you're not that good, you can still complete maybe a third of it already. This has the advantage to be 1) welcoming enough, and 2) hard enough, both at the same time!

In that situation you end up with a campaign that is doable for noobs at the start but then they rage quit because they can't win anymore. And there's not much point to a campaign that you can't finish. While the other side of the fence will complain that majority of the campaign is boring and it only gets slightly challenging near the end (which is a problem for racing games, because you don't have story, or the story is pointless anyway). Progressive campaign difficulty is probably one of the worst things out there. It should come down to what you select. You choose medium, it's medium through it all, you choose easy, it's easy through it all, you choose hard... I think you get it by now.

Also... why did you brought up campaign suddenly? I was talking all the time about the gameplay in general, not just campaign. By that I mean physics, track complexity, AI difficulty etc. To make a game (not campaign, whole game) noob friendly, you'd have to dumb down physics, tracks, AI, pickup system and who knows what else. End result would be a game that is incredibly boring due to being way too simple and easy.

Game that is friendly to new players? Great. Game that is friendly to noobs? Bad... very bad. Besides what's the point of a game that caters to people who don't want to learn at all? The whole point of a game is to play by its rules, so a game that is noob friendly essentially has one rule: "press button to win".

TheOnLY wrote:Well it is how most players will play the game, with pick ups enabled. And a completely new player will likely have problems with keeping up with the AI or catching up to them when they fall behind, not with it fighting back when they want to overtake.

Guess what? Easy AI was still slightly faster. But even if you say measuring inaccuracy is responsible for the lead, do you really think it is fair towards new players to make them face an AI that can drive at least just as fast as the hard AI made for expert players?

Yes and due to randomness and how you as a player can dish out a lot more damage to the AI due to usage of pick ups... it's quite literally impossible to simulate how a newbie would deal with them. I'd say it would be easier for a new player to beat AI with pick ups enabled than with them disabled.

That said, everything in the game is WIP. So I'm not bothered by a bit that low AI can be sometimes faster than hard AI. Heck, AI itself is WIP. I honestly don't think debating about the AI performance matters much now. Not until the physics at least are finalised. Now it's more of a "bug report" thing. Report and move on.

I mean seriously, what's the point of us debating whether a new player can beat low AI now? When it's closer to finished then we can think whether it's easy enough or not.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:24 pm

Well guess I'm in the Ryu Makkuro side on this! You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know when the game is not bad but you are :)

If I'm losing every race I try to practice a lot and if I still failing I see how other ppl do(gameplays, friends etc). If someone is doing great at the game and I'm not it means I'm not good enough so the only way out is keep trying or give up! Hell even with bad physics some ppl do better than me soooo it means I need to get better even if the game still has some flaws it's still doable you know.

When the game is finished with perfect physics it will be just a matter of skill so I guess it's better to just leave the way it is in that we choose our difficult mode and maybe create some cute friendly robot to say some friendly advices for ppl that can't understand why they are losing or something :)
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:31 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:You can make it a challenging game with a noob mode. You seem to think that as soon as you put a noob mode it invalidates all challenge, but it's not necessarily true. Noob modes are not evil. If you have a campaign mode that starts very easy (noob-like), and then go medium (newbie-like) and finally hard (challenge), you will have catered the game to both types of players.

Of course, you would keep the current features in arcade mode where you can choose the AI difficulty etc.. But it wouldn't hurt to have a mini tutorial with different levels, noob or medium (a bit like Rocket League). And in the long run, you replace the tutorial with a proper campaign that goes on increasing difficulty.

I don't know if you have ever played the Soulcalibur series, but the campaign starts very easy (it's hard not to win a fight), and the more you progress, the harder it becomes, to the point that to finish the campaign you need to be very good at the game - but if you're not that good, you can still complete maybe a third of it already. This has the advantage to be 1) welcoming enough, and 2) hard enough, both at the same time!

In that situation you end up with a campaign that is doable for noobs at the start but then they rage quit because they can't win anymore. And there's not much point to a campaign that you can't finish.

Maybe they will ragequit in the end, but at least they have played the game more than 2 hours. If you completely disregard them, they will ragequit after 20 minutes.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:While the other side of the fence will complain that majority of the campaign is boring and it only gets slightly challenging near the end (which is a problem for racing games, because you don't have story, or the story is pointless anyway). Progressive campaign difficulty is probably one of the worst things out there. It should come down to what you select. You choose medium, it's medium through it all, you choose easy, it's easy through it all, you choose hard... I think you get it by now.

Who said majority ? Just 20% of the campaign is fine really. Something the likes of : 20% noob content, 60% medium player content - 20% pro-skillz content.

In particular, the progressive campaign solution does not change at all the overall challenge. You say "I want people to be able to select the difficulty", but in my solution they are still able to do that in Arcade mode, and in Multiplayer. I'm not even talking of unlocking cars. I'm talking of a campaign with a progressive difficulty - when you start the game, there would be a pop-up "Try your hand on the campaign to learn the game!". Players are free to complete or not the campaign. If they want to start straight on in a multiplayer game.. fine.

My point is that at least there should be some kind of progressive content with a progressive challenge/reward mechanism, who would encourage players to continue playing. Yes, even the noobs. Them being less patient than us does not make them less worthy. They have the same right to enjoy GRIP.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Also... why did you brought up campaign suddenly? I was talking all the time about the gameplay in general, not just campaign. By that I mean physics, track complexity, AI difficulty etc. To make a game (not campaign, whole game) noob friendly, you'd have to dumb down physics, tracks, AI, pickup system and who knows what else. End result would be a game that is incredibly boring due to being way too simple and easy.

Exactly, it would be too simple and easy, which is why I proposed a campaign :p

You are talking about gameplay in general - but I'm talking about implementing a progressive campaign that allows people to actually progress into the game with regular positive feedback. Instead of a "Here, face the high skill wall and learn of your mistakes or go back to CoD" that would most certainly lead to 90% of the noobs ragequitting, I propose a "Step 1 - win that race. Step 2 - Good ! Now win this next race that is slightly harder" and so on until the noob becomes a real player.

Two possibilities :
  • Either the noob actually ragequits once he goes past the noob-friendly content - welp, there's nothing we could have done for him anyway, so no regrets.
  • Either he actually gets better, and that's good because that's one more player to the playerbase

But the real strongness of this approach is that it doesn't alter the challenge for the other side of the fence! Worst case, people have to go through the 20% of the campaign (the noob-friendly part). But it's so easy that they will complete it in minutes anyway, so where would be the hurt ?

Ryu Makkuro wrote:The whole point of a game is to play by its rules, so a game that is noob friendly essentially has one rule: "press button to win".

I'm trying to demonstrate here that it is possible to have a noob-friendly game which is not "press button to win", and that pleases all sides.

HikikomoriGamer wrote:Well guess I'm in the Ryu Makkuro side on this! You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know when the game is not bad but you are :)

If I'm losing every race I try to practice a lot and if I still failing I see how other ppl do(gameplays, friends etc). If someone is doing great at the game and I'm not it means I'm not good enough so the only way out is keep trying or give up! Hell even with bad physics some ppl do better than me soooo it means I need to get better even if the game still has some flaws it's still doable you know.

When the game is finished with perfect physics it will be just a matter of skill so I guess it's better to just leave the way it is in that we choose our difficult mode and maybe create some cute friendly robot to say some friendly advices for ppl that can't understand why they are losing or something :)

That's a great mind that you have, but most people on Steam are not patient enough for this. And if we want to have more than 50 players on the multi, we ought to extend GRIP to the masses, not just the proper try-hard players.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:27 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:Maybe they will ragequit in the end, but at least they have played the game more than 2 hours. If you completely disregard them, they will ragequit after 20 minutes.

Don't see much of a difference. If they'll rage quit with a negative review, it doesn't matter how long they'll play it. In fact it would be better if they'd rage quite sooner because that would make their negative reviews with 20 minutes of gameplay time completely pointless.

potterman28wxcv wrote:In particular, the progressive campaign solution does not change at all the overall challenge. You say "I want people to be able to select the difficulty", but in my solution they are still able to do that in Arcade mode, and in Multiplayer. I'm not even talking of unlocking cars. I'm talking of a campaign with a progressive difficulty - when you start the game, there would be a pop-up "Try your hand on the campaign to learn the game!". Players are free to complete or not the campaign. If they want to start straight on in a multiplayer game.. fine.

Well, first of all, there's no actual difficulty to select in Multiplayer. Sure there's the engine speed... but if you're in a public lobby, chances are high someone else will vote for a higher engine speed. On top of that, I personally play SP ONLY for campaign. And I imagine a lot of people do that as well, aside from practice stuff when MP isn't an option. So the only place where one would want a stable difficulty level choice is campaign. On top of that, making a campaign with one single progressive level of difficulty means the campaign HAS to be easier, otherwise most people won't finish it and there will be negative reviews due to that. If you give ability to select the difficulty, you cater FULLY to all sides. Be it noobs who want "push to win", those that want a bit of challenge without having to really try and then the "pro uber noob pwnz".

Progressive difficulty in racing games usually comes from the speed the cars can do. GRIP could make it so the campaign goes through all engine speeds, ending at Wild speed but other than that? It's just more cons than pros. One static difficulty level is more than enough. Racing games are about racing after all or at least they were.

potterman28wxcv wrote:My point is that at least there should be some kind of progressive content with a progressive challenge/reward mechanism, who would encourage players to continue playing. Yes, even the noobs. Them being less patient than us does not make them less worthy. They have the same right to enjoy GRIP.

Well, that progressive challenge/reward mechanism could be as simple as giving rewards for the place you finish. Aka the higher you finish, the more progress you gain towards next level etc. instead of it being "win this race". There are multitude of ways of going about it rather than locking the AI difficulty of the campaign -_-

potterman28wxcv wrote:You are talking about gameplay in general - but I'm talking about implementing a progressive campaign that allows people to actually progress into the game with regular positive feedback. Instead of a "Here, face the high skill wall and learn of your mistakes or go back to CoD" that would most certainly lead to 90% of the noobs ragequitting, I propose a "Step 1 - win that race. Step 2 - Good ! Now win this next race that is slightly harder" and so on until the noob becomes a real player.

potterman28wxcv wrote:Two possibilities :
  • Either the noob actually ragequits once he goes past the noob-friendly content - welp, there's nothing we could have done for him anyway, so no regrets.
  • Either he actually gets better, and that's good because that's one more player to the playerbase

I'm trying to demonstrate here that it is possible to have a noob-friendly game which is not "press button to win", and that pleases all sides.

And you still assume that noob can improve, which is not the case. New player can improve, for sure. Noob is the state of mentality where they don't want to improve. And progressive difficulty won't change that, because for them to start improving you need to change their mentality, which is very difficult.

Now I'm not suggesting of giving a huge skill wall. In fact it's impossible to put that in an arcade racer. What I'm saying is... provide players with means of adjusting the difficulty to their needs and showing them how to play the game. That was new players who do want to improve and get better, they will get better. While noobs will be noobs, so if they are good enough, they'll finish campaign on easy level and that will be it for them, but if not they'll just rage quit without ever bothering to check the tutorials. I'd wager a noob would sooner go to YouTube and look for some OP build, bug or something that would allow them to beat campaign than checking anything that would actually help them improve. That's how thick headed noobs are. That comes from about 8 years of playing against them and trying to make them understand that they can get better.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby HikikomoriGamer » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:02 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:While noobs will be noobs, so if they are good enough, they'll finish campaign on easy level and that will be it for them, but if not they'll just rage quit without ever bothering to check the tutorials. I'd wager a noob would sooner go to YouTube and look for some OP build, bug or something that would allow them to beat campaign than checking anything that would actually help them improve. That's how thick headed noobs are. That comes from about 8 years of playing against them and trying to make them understand that they can get better.


THIS! That's why I'm still with Makkuro :)

Even right now with the so called bad physics as some ppl say in their Steam reviews I see ppl doing really great online so I can rage quit at some time cause my ass gets kicked be it SP or MP but I will never make a bad review for GRIP cause I'm a bad player this is just stupid!
NOW if devs allow some kind of bug be used so garbage like that can win races cheating urrrg... Well even in that case I would need to think about it cause I don't want to write a bad review for GRIP hahahaha but devs seriously don't let things like that happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rv5j407kG4

I know it's called a technique and I kind of applaud ppl that had the endurance to do it during a entire race but for me it's just boring and you're playing the game the wrong way cause I doubt devs wanted that!




potterman28wxcv wrote:That's a great mind that you have, but most people on Steam are not patient enough for this. And if we want to have more than 50 players on the multi, we ought to extend GRIP to the masses, not just the proper try-hard players.


And I kind of understand why Potty is defending his way of seeing things! Like us all he wants the game to succeed and have lot's of ppl to play with not the same old guys :) But I really can't think of a way to make it better for newcomers other than have a friendly community and friendly advices in-game. To make it get a lot of users I feel that the devs would end up making it free to play with fuc**** microtransactions :( But please NOOO!

Also who knows the game can be like Dark Souls! It's a game that I always considered obscure but now everyone talks about it :)
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:42 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:*snip*

Ok I finally get your point and agree with you.

So basically, a campaign with a selectable difficulty. As long as you're not able to change the difficulty in the middle of the campaign, I think it's a good solution. So there would actually be say three different campaigns - one on Easy, one on Medium, one on Hard. At anytime, you can disregard the Easy one and play the Medium one - and then possibly go back to Easy if you get powned too hard. But you can't say advance all the way on Hard, and then on the final mission go back to Easy.

There should also be more rewards based on which difficulty you go - maybe there should be some specific skins that should be only unlockable once you finish the campaign on Hard difficulty. I mean, something other than an achievement.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:59 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:Ok I finally get your point and agree with you.

So basically, a campaign with a selectable difficulty. As long as you're not able to change the difficulty in the middle of the campaign, I think it's a good solution. So there would actually be say three different campaigns - one on Easy, one on Medium, one on Hard. At anytime, you can disregard the Easy one and play the Medium one - and then possibly go back to Easy if you get powned too hard. But you can't say advance all the way on Hard, and then on the final mission go back to Easy.

There should also be more rewards based on which difficulty you go - maybe there should be some specific skins that should be only unlockable once you finish the campaign on Hard difficulty. I mean, something other than an achievement.

Yes. Only took few essays to get my point across, a new record xD

But on a more serious note. A simple option would be to allow someone to change the difficulty down after he couldn't improve his result few times in a row, say 5 for example. Then there can be an option to change the difficulty after the race and when restarting the race, although not one that is "IN YO FACE", because that can be annoying. Make it an option that will have the lower difficulties greyed out until you amass those 5 or so failed attempts. It should count restarts as well.
That way those that are looking at challenge of the harder difficulty won't get annoyed but others will surely notice it by that point.

This way you cater to all the sides without making it annoying or hard to find or have them regret their decision or anything of the sort. In short, more fun, less frustration (and less being annoyed).
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:10 am

This thread will take some time to sum up ^^ but many good stuff should be taken from it
Cornkid wrote:I guess career mode will start on low speed and work up when game is nearer completion

+1, as much as I think tutorial is a good idea like others said, imo it should be fused with the campaign where the exact principle of "progression" is in place (plus, you would bring players progressively to be able to play the same campaign, only to stop at different points perhaps - same campaign on different difficulty **could** be a doozy and resource consuming).

It's also a perfect excuse to set a story and not make campaign about races only (players would get numb, you must revive his interest with diversity - ideas coming in another topic).

Either that or/and put tutorial elements in Carkour with huge floating bilboards (similar to the arrow on tracks) like others said (since there's also a very obvious progression element). At leat use existing modes to strenghten them (Carkour would benefit tremendously from that and feel less empty).

GRIP diluting in too many game modes would weaken it imo. Quality vs quantity.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:30 am

Queadah wrote:It's also a perfect excuse to set a story and not make campaign about races only (players would get numb, you must revive his interest with diversity - ideas coming in another topic)..

Every story in every racing game is just an excuse to race aka waste of resources. Honestly, there are hundreds if not thousands of things that would benefit the game a lot more (I'd say this would even include testing your 3rd pickup idea just to prove it fails :P ).

People that are interested in racing games don't need motivation to race. The reason being that someone is playing a racing game because they want to race. Unless we include the racers with open world like FH3 or The Crew, then people play those just to "dick around", rather than actually race. Those are more "driving games" rather than racing ones at that point. But given that GRIP doesn't have that pesky thing, it's a proper old school racer in which you can, basically speaking, only race.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:06 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:there are hundreds if not thousands of things that would benefit the game a lot more (I'd say this would even include testing your 3rd pickup idea just to prove it fails :P ).
I'm ready to bet this could be a killer, and I enjoy your telling "testing will tell" :)

Ryu Makkuro wrote:People that are interested in racing games don't need motivation to race. The reason being that someone is playing a racing game because they want to race. [...] GRIP [is] a proper old school racer in which you can, basically speaking, only race.

You're making my point. GRIP can be much more than that with little effort. Otherwise, Chris acknowledged GRIP is in a niche. Let's offer elements to pull us out a bit and outreach for a bigger community.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:25 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:Ok I finally get your point and agree with you.

So basically, a campaign with a selectable difficulty. As long as you're not able to change the difficulty in the middle of the campaign, I think it's a good solution. So there would actually be say three different campaigns - one on Easy, one on Medium, one on Hard. At anytime, you can disregard the Easy one and play the Medium one - and then possibly go back to Easy if you get powned too hard. But you can't say advance all the way on Hard, and then on the final mission go back to Easy.

There should also be more rewards based on which difficulty you go - maybe there should be some specific skins that should be only unlockable once you finish the campaign on Hard difficulty. I mean, something other than an achievement.

Yes. Only took few essays to get my point across, a new record xD

But on a more serious note. A simple option would be to allow someone to change the difficulty down after he couldn't improve his result few times in a row, say 5 for example. Then there can be an option to change the difficulty after the race and when restarting the race, although not one that is "IN YO FACE", because that can be annoying. Make it an option that will have the lower difficulties greyed out until you amass those 5 or so failed attempts. It should count restarts as well.
That way those that are looking at challenge of the harder difficulty won't get annoyed but others will surely notice it by that point.

This way you cater to all the sides without making it annoying or hard to find or have them regret their decision or anything of the sort. In short, more fun, less frustration (and less being annoyed).

I played Freespace 2, a space combat game where your carreer consists in a linear storyline with missions.

If you die 5 times, you have a pop-up who says "Would you like to go to the next mission anyway?". I have to admit that I did this quite a few times.. (especially in the additional original campaign Silent Threat who is near impossible to beat without relying on weird mechanics).

Your solution is very close to that - if you lose 5 times, you get to try it in an easier difficulty. And I'm all good for it - just as long as you can't go back to higher difficulties, otherwise it would be too easy, you would just play all the campaign on easy, then the last mission on hard, and hurray you would get the achievement.

I'm OK to allow decreasing the difficulty in the middle of the campaign. But in my opinion, the difficulty shouldn't be allowed to increase in the middle of the campaign, or it would be too easy to complete. If someone wants to go on Hard, he has to start all the campaign anew.
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Cornkid
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Cornkid » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:33 pm

Queadah wrote:This thread will take some time to sum up ^^ but many good stuff should be taken from it
Cornkid wrote:I guess career mode will start on low speed and work up when game is nearer completion

+1, as much as I think tutorial is a good idea like others said, imo it should be fused with the campaign where the exact principle of "progression" is in place (plus, you would bring players progressively to be able to play the same campaign, only to stop at different points perhaps - same campaign on different difficulty **could** be a doozy and resource consuming).


First off, thanks for you're help in steam forum when game didnt launch for me. appreciated.

Racing games have a pretty mundane formula in SP, start slow, achieve, get faster, it works, there's a reason why they mostly adopt that approach I guess.

With regards to any negative reviews, some folk prefer to just witter about skanky physics than work around it, Its a work in progress and I'm sure that CE take note of any negative reviews, as they are more than dedicated to game, it;'s their baby ;)

Me personally, I like a challenge from a game, I dont feel the need to win every steam award, or see the endgame FMV. I like online, I like the banter between real peeps, SP is a practice mode is my reasoning.

It's early days in game development yet, there's always gonna be people that prefer to diss rather than help shape the game. That's their choice, they may well of had bad experiences in other Early Access games before, so not have an open mind.

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Cornkid wrote:First off, thanks for you're help in steam forum when game didnt launch for me. appreciated.

Don't mention it ;) Glad you're involved!

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:46 pm

Queadah wrote:I'm ready to bet this could be a killer, and I enjoy your telling "testing will tell" :)

I agree, it would be a killer. It would essentially kill any chance of well balanced gameplay :P

Queadah wrote:You're making my point. GRIP can be much more than that with little effort. Otherwise, Chris acknowledged GRIP is in a niche. Let's offer elements to pull us out a bit and outreach for a bigger community.

Making your point? GRIP is a racing game and there's nothing wrong about it. It doesn't have to be more. I'd even go as far as to say it shouldn't be "more", because nowadays games just flood you with some "features" and "it's much more than other games out there" stuff. Look at the most popular games right now(LoL, CS:GO, Overwatch, DOTA, Rocket League etc.). They are concentrated on the core stuff, often completely not bothering with the stuff that doesn't matter in the end.

Look at all the other racing games that try to be more and offer things that others don't. All of them fail if they aren't part of incredibly popular franchise and even then they are quickly forgotten. GRIP doesn't need things that will make it "much more". It just needs to polish out the gameplay and add more content. And most importantly... it needs to be advertised. People need to know it exists. You can add gazillions of features, none of them will bring as much crowd as a proper advertisement... or Free2Play model.

Rocket League is the best example here. A football with rocket powered RC cars. Sounds extremely niche, especially when you consider that RC race games are a huge niche. And yet... insanely popular without having anything other than ability to play matches. Naturally football being the most popular sport in the world definitely was a factor in that popularity, along with being released on console but even then... it's still extremely popular for what it is.
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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:50 pm

Now now. No need to go all philosophical. I'll post Campaign ideas to illustrate my words and you'll see the world is not coming to an end ;)

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Re: Making the game more accessible for new players

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:20 pm

Can someone summarize this thread with bullet points?

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