Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:You can make it a challenging game with a noob mode. You seem to think that as soon as you put a noob mode it invalidates all challenge, but it's not necessarily true. Noob modes are not evil. If you have a campaign mode that starts very easy (noob-like), and then go medium (newbie-like) and finally hard (challenge), you will have catered the game to both types of players.
Of course, you would keep the current features in arcade mode where you can choose the AI difficulty etc.. But it wouldn't hurt to have a mini tutorial with different levels, noob or medium (a bit like Rocket League). And in the long run, you replace the tutorial with a proper campaign that goes on increasing difficulty.
I don't know if you have ever played the Soulcalibur series, but the campaign starts very easy (it's hard not to win a fight), and the more you progress, the harder it becomes, to the point that to finish the campaign you need to be very good at the game - but if you're not that good, you can still complete maybe a third of it already. This has the advantage to be 1) welcoming enough, and 2) hard enough, both at the same time!
In that situation you end up with a campaign that is doable for noobs at the start but then they rage quit because they can't win anymore. And there's not much point to a campaign that you can't finish.
Maybe they will ragequit in the end, but at least they have played the game more than 2 hours. If you completely disregard them, they will ragequit after 20 minutes.
Ryu Makkuro wrote:While the other side of the fence will complain that majority of the campaign is boring and it only gets slightly challenging near the end (which is a problem for racing games, because you don't have story, or the story is pointless anyway). Progressive campaign difficulty is probably one of the worst things out there. It should come down to what you select. You choose medium, it's medium through it all, you choose easy, it's easy through it all, you choose hard... I think you get it by now.
Who said majority ? Just 20% of the campaign is fine really. Something the likes of : 20% noob content, 60% medium player content - 20% pro-skillz content.
In particular, the progressive campaign solution does not change at all the overall challenge. You say "I want people to be able to select the difficulty", but in my solution they are still able to do that in Arcade mode, and in Multiplayer. I'm not even talking of unlocking cars. I'm talking of a campaign with a progressive difficulty - when you start the game, there would be a pop-up "Try your hand on the campaign to learn the game!". Players are free to complete or not the campaign
. If they want to start straight on in a multiplayer game.. fine.
My point is that at least there should be some kind of progressive content with a progressive challenge/reward mechanism, who would encourage players to continue playing. Yes, even the noobs. Them being less patient than us does not make them less worthy. They have the same right to enjoy GRIP.
Ryu Makkuro wrote:Also... why did you brought up campaign suddenly? I was talking all the time about the gameplay in general, not just campaign. By that I mean physics, track complexity, AI difficulty etc. To make a game (not campaign, whole game) noob friendly, you'd have to dumb down physics, tracks, AI, pickup system and who knows what else. End result would be a game that is incredibly boring due to being way too simple and easy.
Exactly, it would be too simple and easy, which is why I proposed a campaign :p
You are talking about gameplay in general - but I'm talking about implementing a progressive campaign that allows people to actually progress into the game with regular positive feedback. Instead of a "Here, face the high skill wall and learn of your mistakes or go back to CoD" that would most certainly lead to 90% of the noobs ragequitting, I propose a "Step 1 - win that race. Step 2 - Good ! Now win this next race that is slightly harder" and so on until the noob becomes a real player.
Two possibilities :
- Either the noob actually ragequits once he goes past the noob-friendly content - welp, there's nothing we could have done for him anyway, so no regrets.
- Either he actually gets better, and that's good because that's one more player to the playerbase
But the real strongness of this approach is that it doesn't alter the challenge for the other side of the fence! Worst case, people have to go through the 20% of the campaign (the noob-friendly part). But it's so easy that they will complete it in minutes anyway, so where would be the hurt ?
Ryu Makkuro wrote:The whole point of a game is to play by its rules, so a game that is noob friendly essentially has one rule: "press button to win".
I'm trying to demonstrate here that it is possible to have a noob-friendly game which is not "press button to win", and that pleases all sides.
Well guess I'm in the Ryu Makkuro side on this! You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know when the game is not bad but you are
If I'm losing every race I try to practice a lot and if I still failing I see how other ppl do(gameplays, friends etc). If someone is doing great at the game and I'm not it means I'm not good enough so the only way out is keep trying or give up! Hell even with bad physics some ppl do better than me soooo it means I need to get better even if the game still has some flaws it's still doable you know.
When the game is finished with perfect physics it will be just a matter of skill so I guess it's better to just leave the way it is in that we choose our difficult mode and maybe create some cute friendly robot to say some friendly advices for ppl that can't understand why they are losing or something
That's a great mind that you have, but most people on Steam are not patient enough for this. And if we want to have more than 50 players on the multi, we ought to extend GRIP to the masses, not just the proper try-hard players.