Campaign - storyline propositions

Here you give us specific suggestions on how you think the private release can be improved.

This isn't for bug reports, this is for features (example: wrong way indicator)
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Queadah
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Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:27 am

Alrightyo, in extension of the thread "Making the game more accessible for new players", I felt like we could throw in ideas for the campaign mode aka GRIP League, knowing ofc it must fit with the background story at https://www.cagedelement.com/grip/#story

Here goes a proposal to make that universe alive with little means, I'll put only bits at a time.

  • Chapter 1: Introduction
    • Goal: as a new racer, reach an abandonned weapon depot (forgotten by a certain Yuri, now an Industrialist tycoon) in Jahtra to load up ammo for free for GRIP league. :mrgreen:
    • Choose a manufacturer (med class only)
    • Engine power: low only available
    • Voice over + text of your mechanics giving you instructions?
    • From the Garage floating in space (see Ryu's topic), car drives outside for planetary dropout on Jahtra.
    • Loading 1st event, car destructible, player introduced to air control tutorial in space (releasing gaz to roll) to dogde obstacles (asteroids, debris, whatever), using gaz to accelerate etc...
    • slow-mo tutorial to better dodge debris
    • tutorial on how to move camera to observe orbitational debris coming from the sides and your entry in the atmosphere (front car burning effect)
    • Event ends when closing in on the ground in the atmosphere (IG cinematic of car crashing on planet with dust effect - no need to show a lot)
    • Next event, point A -> point B on Alhatra by day - flip flop + med. class jump ability tutorlal, otherwise, weapon depot doesn't open (just re-use the norvos door asset -dust instead of snow- next to the rock tunnel. It opens "up").
    • Event ends when (finding? and) entering the depot.
    • Weapons unlocked.
For now, GRIP menu shows only Alhatra in the background (changes later to other planets -just change the color- when other chapters come)

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:58 pm

Queadah wrote:[*]Voice over + text of your mechanics giving you instructions?

Well, this is already an issue since... you need a proper studio to record those voice overs, otherwise the audio quality would be sub-par. Can't imagine that even renting a studio to record stuff would be... remotely cheap. And this is with assuming that Rob or Chris would be the voice of the mechanic.

Queadah wrote:[*]Loading 1st event, car destructible, player introduced to air control tutorial in space (releasing gaz to roll) to dogde obstacles (asteroids, debris, whatever), using gaz to accelerate etc...

You can't avoid with roll. For that you need either Yaw (Horizontal) or Pitch (Vertical) so that you could actually travel, instead of just spinning and falling down straight. And that would be a bit too much for the cars. Or rather they would be space ships at that point and the only question would be "why can't we fly?". Naturally that only strengthens the "flying simulator" comments which aren't needed... at all.

On top of that, there's the whole issue of how the car would survive a drop from the orbit? And why there isn't a crater in the place where it landed? A meteor the size of a VW Golf can already create a small crater, but given that the GRIP cars are... much bigger, we're talking about quite a huge impact. If there wouldn't be any car destruction in the game... ok, no problem, they are made out of indestructible materials. But they can be blown up.


Other than those issues, just looks like a typical campaign mode without any storyline. Aka generic "starting point" from which you gather everything and win whatever you can win. Which sounds pretty much great to me. No need for any pesky story to the campaign. I don't race to get my revenge on someone, I race cause I love it ;)

PS. Norvos would fit the lore better for a warehouse in which you get infinite ammo supply to your weapons, since it was a military planet.
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:17 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:you need a proper studio to record those voice overs,

Then only txt

Ryu Makkuro wrote:they would be space ships at that point and the only question would be "why can't we fly?".

Well because, you know, there's no atmosphere in space. Anything "flies" in space. No?
Ryu Makkuro wrote:On top of that, there's the whole issue of how the car would survive a drop from the orbit? And why there isn't a crater in the place where it landed?

Last I checked, no one screamed over Iron Man movies inconsistencies. On G forces alone, Tony Stark is dead 1000th of times.
Just because dude!
Ryu Makkuro wrote:No need for any pesky story to the campaign. [...] Norvos would fit the lore better for a warehouse in which you get infinite ammo supply to your weapons, since it was a military planet.

So which one is it, no pesky story or some story after all? ;)

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:24 pm

Why can they fly? Detachable wings. A bit like a sky train.

Or like this.
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Once on the ground the wings would detach and fly away or just fall to the ground. So the car itself cant really fly.

Why doesnt it crash horribly? With wings it can land like a plane. Or it would have some parachutes.

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:25 pm

Django wrote:Why can they fly?

It's "why can't they fly?" ;)

Queadah wrote:Well because, you know, there's no atmosphere in space. Anything "flies" in space. No?

I love how you cut a quote trying to change its meaning so you can write a reply that tries to ridicule it.

Anyway, the whole point of that statement was that having a jet engine along with yaw, pitch and roll controls coupled with ability to survive in the vacuum of the space... they'd be more space ships than cars at that point and you would wonder why can't you fly over the race track. Kind of destroys the whole concept of the game.

Queadah wrote:Last I checked, no one screamed over Iron Man movies inconsistances. On G forces alone, Tony Stark is dead 1000th of times.
Just because dude!

Iron Man is set in Marvel universe, which means Hulk, Thor etc. aka more fantasy than sci-fi, which naturally means physics don't apply because... magic.
GRIP last time I checked was a futuristic racer. Which is very strictly sci-fi without any bit of fantasy. And yes, it would look cool... on a CGI that would take a crapload of resources to make. But a quick cut from getting close to entering the atmosphere to literally the landing part... not so cool anymore. If they'd find a way of making it look really cool... then yeah, it would look cool, but on the other hand it would go against it being a futuristic racer and more into "fantasy racing". Again, against the concept of the game.

Queadah wrote:So which one is it, no pesky story or some story after all? ;)

Fitting lore =/= story.


I personally have few "checkmarks" when thinking of stuff for the game or generally looking through ideas people come up with (in the descending priority order):
- works with the concept of the game
- looks cool
- fits the lore
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:02 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Django wrote:Why can they fly?

It's "why can't they fly?" ;)


Thats Obviously wrong. That Question doesnt even match to my answear.


Come on, dont be so salty. Im just offering solutions for other peoples problems.

In any case the correct Question is: Why could they possibly fly?

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:01 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:No need for any pesky story to the campaign. I don't race to get my revenge on someone, I race cause I love it ;)

Ok. Let's assume my ideas are overblown. Doesn't bother me. Then can someone tell me:
  • what's the point in having a campaign without story?
Let me give you a hint:
  • succession of races? I can get that in current SP
  • progressive difficulty? I can setup that in standard SP
  • any mode in campaign? I can play them in current SP
  • cars? I got them already
  • weapons? ditto
  • err...

I tip my hat off to the one that finds interest in a campaign without story, whatever the "lore" lulz. And it's a big ass hat ;)
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:30 am

There are great racing games without any story and great ones with story.

The storylines are often made without love. But if done right some fleshing out of the world and lore can benefit even a racing game.

Think of it the other way around: do you know racing games that haven gotten worse because there was some story involved?

Fleshed out Storyline or not i would love some more hollywood in the game.

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:09 am

Django wrote:There are great racing games without any story and great ones with story.

Think of it the other way around: do you know racing games that haven gotten worse because there was some story involved?

Well yes: RC hadn't gotten worse because there was some story involved. It made it better, there even was tiny cinematics!

I remember no racing game that got worse because they had a story, and those that had none didn't make me care enough to remember now. I don't do rounds on a circuit without a game enticing me to care (except for the promess to unlock exclusive OP stuff perhaps).

It still leave my question here for those that want my sombrero tipped off ^^:
what's the point in having a campaign without story?

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:02 am

What Rollcage had a storyline? :? Was it removed from the Redux version?

Edit: OK, turns out the original Rollcage did had cinematics. I know only the cinematics from RC II, can anybody link me to a video with all the cinematics from RC? Nevermind, found it.

Edit:
@Quaeadah

Im not sure if you realise this: That racing games get better not worse with a storyline was exactly my point.

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:11 am

Django wrote:Im not sure if you realise this: That racing games get better not worse with a storyline was exactly my point.

I know man, I think there was one negation too many in your question, which turned it the opposite :lol:
Story is needed, we both agree ;)

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:25 am

Django wrote:In any case the correct Question is: Why could they possibly fly?

Not really. If the cars would have roll, yaw and/or pitch controls, then due to having a jet engine at the back, they could fly (just point the engine downwards in mid-air, and thrust into space, aka look at Rocket League). But in the race they obviously can't, so a natural question in that situation would be: "Why can't they fly?"

If you don't give them yaw and pitch controls... no issue there.

Queadah wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:No need for any pesky story to the campaign. I don't race to get my revenge on someone, I race cause I love it ;)

Ok. Let's assume my ideas are overblown. Doesn't bother me. Then can someone tell me:
what's the point in having a campaign without story?

In the progression. Getting from zero to hero. The lack of story in a racing campaign doesn't bother simply because you're not controlling a character, you're controlling the cars. On top of that, you can't really solve problems through races, don't let Fast & Furious/Need For Sales convince you otherwise. And most importantly... when I want to race, I play a racing game. That's my motivation, nothing else. If someone plays a racing game for some other reason... then why do you even play them? It's in the friggin name of the genre, "racing game", if you don't want to race, don't play it.

And yes, you can setup something "similar" in normal SP, problem is... there won't be any satisfaction in it when you actually start unlocking stuff because... they are already unlocked. In short campaigns in racing games follow a simple pattern that is "You're a new guy here, you start from scratch". When you're interesting in racing you don't need more.

Queadah wrote:I tip my hat off to the one that finds interest in a campaign without story, whatever the "lore" lulz. And it's a big ass hat ;)

I assume then you have never heard of Gran Turismo, Colin McRae Rally, DiRT Rally, Need For Speed franchise before Underground (aka no Need For Sales titles), Burnout franchise, TOCA and there's quite few more titles/franchises that I can't think of now.

Just so you know, Gran Turismo franchise sold in over 50 million copies, so that's a lot of people who find interest in a campaign without a story. You got a lot of tipping to do :P

Funny thing is though, most racing games that do have a story, end up having somewhat crappy physics and not being all that enjoyable to play or other issues that make the game lose interest the moment you finish whatever the campaign is there (FH3 immediately pops into my mind from the recent titles, NFS The Run as well). Not sure about you but I've been playing RC Stage II a long time after finishing the campaign. And nowadays with MP being the norm, most racing games come down purely to the MP mode, SP campaign is there just so you get the hang of the game. No point putting any resources than the required minimum into it, when the only people that will be looking for a story there are those that play the game for a story and not racing.
And honestly, why should anyone care about people who play racing games not because they want to race? You want a story, you play an RPG, because that's where you can get the best stories. Or maybe an action adventure game. It's a normal consumer thinking, you're looking for something, you buy something that delivers that thing. No one is gonna buy a first person shooter when they want to race -_-
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:53 am

About the flying: Ok i get your point. But where comes the yaw and pitch control from? Thats where the wings come into play.



I think you two are talking about two different things when you say "storyline".

And i agree, everything about the NFS Underground games sucked.


I think Queadah means mostly a nice presentation of the whole "Hooray you win !" Like RC. Im thinking more Road Rash 3D (same direction).

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:25 am

Yeah. Also, there's still no answer to "where's the interest in a story-less campaign" in sight. (No hat tipping!)

Whatever. Now time for:
  • Chapter 2: training
    • car destructible, engine low
    • wherever the weapons depot is, now that "ammo has been gathered" (weapons unlocked), car appears back out on track.
    • Make a mine field drop from the sky and gattling pickups only appearing on their rack (your mechanics hacked the pickup rack system on the ground to make them work again ;) and dropped the mines from space to show you how tough GRIP league is gonna be :P)
    • tutorial ensues on how to jump over or destroy mines
    • then, assuming the weapons depot is on Norvos, mechanics tells you to go past the sentry guns (already existing on FIC btw) because you must go to the extraction point to leave planet.
    • tutorial ensues on how to use shield to protect from missiles...
    • ...and how to flip that shield to the front! (tune sentries' dmg so that without shielding properly, car explodes) :P
    • tutorial on EMP to disable the next row of sentries
    • then put destructibles on the way. Tutorial on missiles vs environment
    • extraction point reached. Car back in the garage in space.
    • Racing can start next!

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:51 am

Django wrote:About the flying: Ok i get your point. But where comes the yaw and pitch control from? Thats where the wings come into play.

Not really. You can have those control from small "air cannons" similar to those on... space ships... But again, this would make it more space ship racing than car racing. And it would be ridiculous to have a game that has GRIP in name while you can make the cars fly, which means... no grip at all...

Queadah wrote:Yeah. Also, there's still no answer to "where's the interest in a story-less campaign" in sight. (No hat tipping!)

Read my post properly. Answer is there, even if you don't accept it.
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Django » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:25 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Django wrote:About the flying: Ok i get your point. But where comes the yaw and pitch control from? Thats where the wings come into play.

Not really. You can have those control from small "air cannons" similar to those on... space ships... But again, this would make it more space ship racing than car racing. And it would be ridiculous to have a game that has GRIP in name while you can make the cars fly, which means... no grip at all...


Im talking about flying in athmosphäre. Spaceships cant really fly in earth orbit. Exept the Space Shuttles which as it turn out has wings.



@ Ryu Makkuro + Queadah
You two should really meet and have some beers together, do some recreational drugs if legal at your place, make out, play a game at a console, have a healty fistfight or whatever keeps you afloot and gets youre tensions down. Damn.

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:30 am

I'm trying to suggest things in that forum like the subsection name says but I keep getting jumped at the throat.

Why would someone not caring about storyline post in a topic called "storyline"? Seriously...
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:16 am

Django wrote:Im talking about flying in athmosphäre. Spaceships cant really fly in earth orbit. Exept the Space Shuttles which as it turn out has wings.

Well, technically they can't but if the cars would be given yaw and/or pitch controls in mid-air... they could fly. You just point the jet engine downwards and off you go. And believe it or not, I was also talking about flying in atmosphere (hence the "fly over the track" parts ;) )

Queadah wrote:I'm trying to suggest things in that forum like the subsection name says but I keep getting jumped at the throat.

Why would someone not caring about storyline post in a topic called "storyline"? Seriously...

First of all, critique is not jumping at the throat. Secondly I like to point out that storyline in a racing game is not needed at all, which is why the resources needed to create it could be put into more useful things. You know, things that actually add to the gameplay.
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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby Queadah » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:09 am

... and you made abundantly clear you cast your -1 vote by now. Dully noted.
You can now safely leave people that have different opinions than yours develop the idea if they so wish.

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Re: Campaign - storyline propositions

Postby VooDooQky » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Reading so far this topic, I came to a conclusion.

If, for anything, a short story mode shall be there, to show the new player the ropes for the game, so resources should be used for it with that in mind. aka.: not too much, since most of the peepz will play it once, then hurry over to the MP tab anywayz.

IMHO, since GRIP have the potential for a good multiplayer orientation, not much people will care about having a detailed "garnish", especially in a racing game. What will matter and sale in the end are the rock hard physics, how the controls will tame it, the intensive feel of speed, the visuals sprinkled with a bit of THRILLING FIERY EXPLODING CARNAGE!!!4!4! These would be the raising factors of replay value in a racing game such as this.

For the story, the core idea is already present on the CE homepage. These informations just have to be written down in the game later on aswell, if anyone would be curious to check on them (ME for example) under a menu tab.

As for dispatching from orbit, yeah, that would be indeed an awesome feature and a looker at that, but also a very resource demanding thing for a minigame, I fear. I can imagine it being an opening gamemode in a proper interplanetary tournament system in the later future. Auxiliary rockets, dropped in atmoshpere, parachutes 'n stuff... hmmhm


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