GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:13 pm

Django wrote:So, what i really love about this upgrade is: 1. the new menu and the garage (needs some preselected colours).

2. Also the superbowl (can we have more of those? :) ) I managed to jump from the bottom directly to the ceiling which was pretty cool. Some plants some more plants hanging down the ceiling would look awesome and some water coming down somewhere.

Yes, we will off predetermined skins for cars later on. I like speedbowl too :) It certainly needs work visually, yes

The Sudden Silent wrote:no idea what happen on Biodome. Level wont start its freezing on loading screen/crash. Last night i hear 1 time error sound on biodome loading screen.

OK we've fixed some crashes recently so hopefully this won't happen anymore

Sigrid wrote:I'm not sure if someone else has the problem, but on this new build the music ingame doesn't work anymore. The menu music is fine, and in the Audio menu when i press Play i can perfectly listen to every song, but when i launch a race (or any other game) there are only sound effects.
So i tried to add a few personal musics to the jukebox and some work (and some do not) but then i only get to hear one song during a race, and when it ends the game replays the same song and does not go to another one.

As The Sudden Silent said, the Garage menu should be accessible from the race selection menu as well.
And there should be preselected colours for the cars too.

Car physics is better, and thank you so much for modifying the camera when we look on the sides or behind us, it's really nice to finally be able to see our car when we do (besides, it allows us to admire the car from every angle). ;)

Music issue is fixed internally already, so it will work next patch

Garage we do want to have a shortcut to, but we'll see how much trouble the UI gives us, trying to do that

Physics are certainly better :) And yes Rob did a nice job on the camera. Glad you like the patch!

kerikeron wrote:I can understand Carkour specifically not catering to the heavier classes, but that sets the precedent that almost all races will be riddled with speedster classes. WipEout HD had a similar problem where there were 4 stats but only 2 of them factored into peoples choices: acceleration and handling.

Acceleration allows players to not only reset faster after being hit with a weapon, but allows them to get to the pick-ups first off the starting line. The player in first will do their best to clean the map of all pick-ups, denying all other players within reach of first. They will use all pick-ups almost immediately so that they can pick up the next set. This can lead to anti-fun races since mines can cut off choke points or best racing lines to players who struggle to get any pick-up to deal with them. Now I will say the tracks that have splits in them (Which almost all do) mitigate this.

Handling of course leads to taking corners easier, faster, and keeping speed better. Also dodging mines. Plain and simple.

Top Speed is actually pretty irrelevant outside of time trials and low engine speed. With so many turns on a track, you're rarely ever able to hit that top speed if it's not on low engine speed.

With all that being said, I just want you all to think about what could happen. Just like in WipEout HD, there were 12 or so ship teams all with beautiful designs but only 3 were used. I'd like to see a variety online, so carefully reconsider the weight of each stat and how much variation should exist. Stats won't ever take away from the gameplay if handled with care.

Keep up the great work though! Also, when will the first Orbital Prime track screenshots come out? I've been dying to see what a track on that planet will look like.

I don't see how having Carkour cater to a specific class will apply to races as well? They're very different game modes. Races are already full of different cars, and in our internal multiplayer testing, players use any of the 3 cars and have success.

Sure, some maps have more curves and cater to speedster class cars, but the Dreadnaught cleans up on Transport and FIC Outpost. Plus there are quite a few places on tracks in general where the top speed certainly matters. I do agree though that vehicle stats need close attention, something that we will be giving them now that multiplayer is coming into the game. We're open to discussion on what people think are the best stats for each car!

Orbital Prime unfortunately is a ways away. It requires a whole new slew of city assets and we don't have the manpower to tackle that currently
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby 0Blueaura » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:26 pm

shame, i really wanted to see wipeout pods as police force
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:00 pm

twisted wrote:Really enjoy the update so far. Grip-wise, I think it's safe to say you reached a level where the car handles perfectly fine... I wouldn't change anything except, well a couple of things: the landings, car climbing the environments, car collisions and collision issues.

The biggest issue being car climbing the environments... I don't understand why we should be able to drive on some steep mountains without having them highly impacting the car power. I noticed I can climb on those mountains very easily even at low speed and it becomes an issue when you hit them at full speed... It's like going from Rollcage to a very frustrating Ping pong game where you don't control the bouncing ball anymore hitting each mountains of the scenery. Why don't you just activate wall climbing on the only places that matter in-game... loops and tunnels? I think that would fix a lot of problems.

- Also the camera get very close to the car sometimes it's hard to see where you ended up.

- On FIC outpost, I can go through some rocks of the mountains at high speed, it seems collision is not assigned to them.

- I think the shocks should absorb more the impacts when landing because the cars are still unstable, like if the new amazing car physics is not applied to landings... feels like the first builds. By unstable, I mean that we can lose control easily.

- Lastly, the collisions with other cars could be improved because we lose too much speed and control when hitting them which is frustrating.

- Ability to rotate car faster or slower with mouse scroll in garage, as well as stop it.

It's a tricky balance, giving the cars enough grip to hug ceilings and walls, plus get them to slide/drift when you want them to. Really, really tricky. We've also got code that adds friction to certain surfaces when impacting them, so the car doesn't fly into the air as much. isolating which areas we want the cars to do certain things is very difficult, but we think we've done a good job so far in that respect. That said, there's still more work to do, and your comments are something to consider

Camera functionality during collisions still needs work, yea

The collision on some of the rocks in FIC are off, indeed I need to fix that

Landings are mostly hard to control when the car lands on 2 tires, this is due to how the grip system works (and factors I mention above). yep, still more work to be done there

Are you referring to hitting a Dreadnaught with a Cyclone/Dominator, or just in general? Because it makes sense for the Dreadnaught to slow the smaller cars quite a bit

Rotating the cars in the garage manually is on the list. UE4 is just giving us a hard time with mouse events

Tathendal wrote:What does the "auto" option mean in the engine power setting? It automatically selects the power? Based on what?

Small side note: You might want to change the category names back to medium, high, wild because nobody wants to drive as "low" engine power (might aswell call it "moped" or "pussy speeds", or was that your point, to encourage people to not select "low"?) ;D

Auto is connected to difficulty. If difficulty is set to high then the engine power is set to wild, and so on

Noobs will no doubt want to start with low, but I suggest we have "normal/high/wild" as the labeling

remm wrote:Carkour feedback:

I'm really pleased you're bringing back the spirit of Scramble. The Carkour mode pushes the boundaries, which also brings out the flaws in the current control system. I'm coming at this from a viewpoint of what was possible in Rollcage, and so what I imagine should be possible in GRIP.

Firstly, there is the lack of ability to turn hard that the cars have. The Line Jump map showed this the best where you can land sideways and would expect to, but fail to turn immediately after landing. I found that with any real speed, I couldn't correct my car simply by turning. Maybe I could describe it as understeer, but an arcade style game should have, or have to worry about that. Disappointing control like this is what every other modern racer seems to have. In Rollcage I would have driven off in the direction my car was pointing.
Example: http://gfycat.com/ImpossibleEsteemedBarracuda

Secondly, the camera isn't as smooth as it could be. Jumpity shows this off well, where the camera twitches as it passes over the 180 degrees. In some of the other flip-flop style maps like Slide, the camera will also reset if it can't rotate to the new angle, which is incredibly disorientating and difficult to follow.
I went back to check Rollcage Stage 2, and the camera would always rotate to follow the car even if you do a perfect 180 degree flip. Always smooth. I captured this clip with the Genesis on Hydroponics, which shows some qualities Rollcage excelled at - which I think GRIP should aim for - in terms of camera, speed and control.
https://gfycat.com/ElectricVillainousFrillneckedlizard

It's true that the maneuverability of our cars in tight spaces is less than it was in rollcage, but we're going for somewhere in between arcade and sim with the physics. I do agree that upon landing the cars need more responsiveness, as they tend to keep pulling a certain direction, namely the one you're trying to turn away from. This is due to a lot of factors in the physics code, so it won't be easy to address.

I agree with the assessment of the camera, it can get disorienting. There's still work to be done in this respect. I'll save this GIF as a reference ;)

0Blueaura wrote:this is what happens when you try to challenge trackmania physics.

I believe what would make those platforms more cool and outstanding is to dream them up. just think of ue4 capabilites for a moment. otherwordly lengths for the road, going straight into the sky easily breaking 1000 limits with turbos, jump unbelievable distances, these cars can handle it. except if we talking about cars bouncing off at higher speeds since 0.01v alpha

this rampy jumpy track was fun for me though

yeah but we're not trying to challenge Trackmania's physics at all :/

Don't worry Blue, this is just the first update with Carkour in it. There will be plenty of maps. If you want to draw some up, feel free!

TheOnLY wrote:I don't really see how different handling for different tyres would add much to the game. There is no customisation that affects performance. Why would it be different for tyres? Wouldn't it make the "grip" stat pointless?

Yes the physics in the game look believable enough for the most part, but it is obviously nowhere near realistic, so why add an element to it that is mostly used simulation or at least semi-realistic games? There is a fine line between adding depth or adding unnecessary complexity. To me it would most likely feel like it was put there just because "Grip needs more depth" -Taped on-
Keeping things simple in very fast paced games is usually a good idea.

ApexAzimuth wrote:I'm a big simulation fan but I still don't think Grip needs to have variable stats for tire choice because of the unnecessary complexity it would add to game balance.

CE has enough on their list of things to do just to get Grip in a feature-complete state, we don't need to burden the game with complex game balance issues, ESPECIALLY if it's going to take multiplayer competition seriously.

This is how I feel as well
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:13 pm

0Blueaura wrote:I was thinking about tires as I remembered there was a thread about "car customization" in terms of performance, and I know that grip was meant to be much more like first rollcage, less cars but bigger balance, so performance parts were thrown away I suppose.

tires are just one part of the whole thing of "tuning" that to me, seems reasonable as we drive 400 ton machines on many difference sets of terrain.

I thought of choosing tires as a last step before race (if we toggle tire simulation button to ON) so we can have a "garage" to pop up with the car we want to pick, and tires to choose that change grip bar to either green +grip and red -grip for each type of tire against corresponding track.

this mode would be locked to ON if we would play campaign. (and would NOT show if the grip bar rises or decrease)

but I might have wanted too much. I agree and disagree to my own statement :^D

It's not something we really want to introduce, so I wouldn't expect it in the game. We will have various surface properties though, I'd imagine.

As for having less cars than Rollcage, I don't remember us saying that, but I write a lot on these forums :P

We want to have a lot of cars.

zephiris wrote:jk... but yeah, keep it simple i say... the cars should be an already fine tuned performance pack where you may choose cosmetics... if there are too many performance tuning options from the beginning, poor developers are going to have a hell of a time fixing "bugs" appearing because of a million possible combinations of things instead of finishing the game... i dont think we really want that... i dont, not yet... i say, first, get it done the way you guys envisioned it, THEN if time and resources allow, well, add a mode or two for specific tweakings that can be made from community requests/ideas/brainstorms/whatever... then i'll bring out my big guns suggestions... ;)

Yeah, who knows, maybe later we can explore ideas like this, but for now we've got enough to think about :)
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby 0Blueaura » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:48 pm

I'm crazy happy to see new cars, and with that, as I stated before I definitely would love a carcour-only special car, of course usable in normal mode, maybe after finishing carcour in later stages of development.

I will make a new post with ideas for carcour :)

what I meant with "trackmania physics" is that whenever you do something in this game, its due to physics, and physics in this game are always the same with no flaw whatsoever , when you jump you land, when you wall drive and lose traction the car stay the same angle and doesn't crash onto the next wall it will fall onto. etc etc.

here, the size of the track was too small comparing to the car, it was destined to act wobbly. on the other side speed tracks with curves makes the car bounce, shameful glitch happening from the beginnings of the time
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby kerikeron » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:45 pm

Chris_CE wrote:I don't see how having Carkour cater to a specific class will apply to races as well? They're very different game modes. Races are already full of different cars, and in our internal multiplayer testing, players use any of the 3 cars and have success.

Sure, some maps have more curves and cater to speedster class cars, but the Dreadnaught cleans up on Transport and FIC Outpost. Plus there are quite a few places on tracks in general where the top speed certainly matters. I do agree though that vehicle stats need close attention, something that we will be giving them now that multiplayer is coming into the game. We're open to discussion on what people think are the best stats for each car!

Orbital Prime unfortunately is a ways away. It requires a whole new slew of city assets and we don't have the manpower to tackle that currently


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. It was less of a focus on Carkour and more on the fact that Carkour relies mostly on acceleration and handling. Because the difference in acceleration is so greatly noticeable, it makes one believe that all other stats will have similar variance. ie the top speed, or x stat, of one car is absurdly more than another, making it the only choice for certain tracks/engine speeds.

As for Orbital Prime, does that mean the community can make up ridiculous lore and you'll make it canon?

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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:29 am

kerikeron wrote:
Chris_CE wrote:I don't see how having Carkour cater to a specific class will apply to races as well? They're very different game modes. Races are already full of different cars, and in our internal multiplayer testing, players use any of the 3 cars and have success.

Sure, some maps have more curves and cater to speedster class cars, but the Dreadnaught cleans up on Transport and FIC Outpost. Plus there are quite a few places on tracks in general where the top speed certainly matters. I do agree though that vehicle stats need close attention, something that we will be giving them now that multiplayer is coming into the game. We're open to discussion on what people think are the best stats for each car!

Orbital Prime unfortunately is a ways away. It requires a whole new slew of city assets and we don't have the manpower to tackle that currently

As for Orbital Prime, does that mean the community can make up ridiculous lore and you'll make it canon?

I think the devs in Caged Element are mature enough to know the difference between ridiculous and good lore.

The posts on the forum are just suggestions. Maybe some of them would make for a good lore (fan-made lores are not necessarily ridiculous), while some of them won't. It's all up to the devs to draw their line between what they want and what the community wants - and it's something that (in my eyes at least) they excelled at so far. They don't blindly 100% follow the community, but they don't ignore it neither.
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby aardvark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:49 pm

On the subject of tyres affecting stats...
We're traveling at speeds where the speedometer might as well be in Mach, with very large and heavy vehicles that are capable of driving on walls and ceilings.

I'm not confident that the tread pattern on a tyre is going to make an appreciable difference in handling since the amount of grip the vehicles have is clearly dependent on a lot more than rubber touching the ground, and it will certainly have no appreciable impact to top speed or acceleration, since the engine power isn't being transferred through the tires and is instead blasted out of the rear, while being a brick shaped openwheeler will be a far bigger issue for drag than the tread is. :geek:

So yeah, solid "no"-vote from me on the idea of having tyres matter. :)
We would all just pick The Best Tyre for a track anyway, or curse profusely if we forgot and started with the wrong tyre, making us non-competitive... Or if you're still competitive with completely wrong tyres, why have there be a difference?



remm wrote:I captured this clip with the Genesis on Hydroponics, which shows some qualities Rollcage excelled at - which I think GRIP should aim for - in terms of camera, speed and control.
https://gfycat.com/ElectricVillainousFrillneckedlizard


That camera looks absolutely horrible to me. :lol:
I get why some people would like that, but I would not be able to drive at all with a lazy camera like that. :roll:

Though to be honest, as soon as we get the + key working again, so I can get back into the bumper cam; I don't really care what happens with the chase cams. ;)

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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:48 pm

aardvark wrote:Though to be honest, as soon as we get the + key working again, so I can get back into the bumper cam; I don't really care what happens with the chase cams. ;)

Well, I do. Although I'm pretty darn happy with the camera behaviour right now and don't see a way of improving it aside from... turning off that "look towards the route" thingie. Drives me mad. I want the camera to stick behind the car at all times when I'm driving on the ground and not blasting towards the nearest moon xD
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Queadah » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:11 pm

aardvark wrote:We're traveling at speeds where the speedometer might as well be in Mach

You don't know how close you are (some already broke the speed of sound barrier).
I added a HUD mach counter on a mockup I did some time ago:
https://cagedelement.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=354&start=20#p14749

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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby aardvark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:31 pm

Queadah wrote:
aardvark wrote:We're traveling at speeds where the speedometer might as well be in Mach

You don't know how close you are (some already broke the speed of sound barrier).


Neat, didn't know we could actually get transonic, I've only managed just shy of 900kph iirc :)

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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:40 pm

aardvark wrote:Neat, didn't know we could actually get transonic, I've only managed just shy of 900kph iirc :)

My highest result so far was 1086km/h. Definitely some mach stuff going on :D
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Re: GRIP Update v.1.1.0 is now on Steam!

Postby 0Blueaura » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:13 pm

there totally should be an effect of sonic explosion when we reach 1000
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