GRIP Update v.1.1.5 is now on Steam!

[Queadah]

I'm with Voo. All jumps are impacted by the EMP without exception, it's no reason to kill them all and was only done so far (my opinion) to ease new players (transport can now be branded "easy").

That it'd be standard to not implement these kind of jumps again would be really, really sad.

The sense of accomplishment also comes from hurdles you clear. You remove them all = meh

[Ryu Makkuro]

If things are coming down like this, then all similar jumps are down to luck and no skill, since mostly you need a proper speed and angle for them.

Problem with similar jumps is that they are optional. And that was the only jump that really did that. All the other jumps in the game still gave you chance, as in it was down to lining it up, not having enough speed (which was the case with that one, there was no skill involved in lining it up) and even when you didn't had enough speed... you still fall down onto an actual road from which you can continue. It's stupid to be massively penalised because someone at that specific moment engaged an EMP without even knowing you were there.

This one wasn't an option, didn't gave you a chance to continue and was purely down to having enough speed. If there was something in that chasm that actually allowed you to continue when you didn't had enough speed but still required some lining up... sure, great, but there wasn't. It was a bad piece of design on a track like that.

[Cornkid]

Random thought imminent.

If career mode was to have a easy/medium/pro setting then I have a solution maybe.

Keep tracks as they are after this update on easy which would suit newcomers, then as medium level convert back to how it was before this update, and make it even harder on pro.

I kinda figure the track variants are already made, and its a shame to lose what we had, or the effort devs invested in them

[Tathendal]

Problem with that fall is as simple as you crossing it safely was more down to luck than skill.

I don't agree, though there are chances of that happening those are pretty slim -> ergo I wouldn't say it is MORE down to luck than skill. And if you get hit by EMP early, you can slow down and accelerate again if you want to make sure you will make the jump. And why did you choose that route that has the jump in the first place? You took the risk, that's why. Also as discussed somewhere earlier, if every aspect of the game is modified so that there is absolutely no luck involved, it might become more boring. I say an epic jump is worth it even though you get unlucky maybe 1/100 times and don't make it because of luck.

Also I like these kind of elements since it is fun to fire missile or gattling before this part and laugh when enemy falls off. As I understand, GRIP isn't being developed with 100 % of serious competitive play in mind, in which case I would agree with you.

Problem with similar jumps is that they are optional. And that was the only jump that really did that.

1. Transport reverse much? (well it's not jump but you get seriously penalized if you get hit by anything before the 90 degree vertical uphill)
2. This was optional too, there is another route.

[Ryu Makkuro]

Problem with that fall is as simple as you crossing it safely was more down to luck than skill.

I don't agree, though there are chances of that happening those are pretty slim -> ergo I wouldn't say it is MORE down to luck than skill. And if you get hit by EMP early, you can slow down and accelerate again if you want to make sure you will make the jump. And why did you choose that route that has the jump in the first place? You took the risk, that's why. Also as discussed somewhere earlier, if every aspect of the game is modified so that there is absolutely no luck involved, it might become more boring. I say an epic jump is worth it even though you get unlucky maybe 1/100 times and don't make it because of luck.

Also I like these kind of elements since it is fun to fire missile or gattling before this part and laugh when enemy falls off. As I understand, GRIP isn't being developed with 100 % of serious competitive play in mind, in which case I would agree with you.

First of all, there's no skill involved in making that jump. Unless you're literally aiming for the wall you'll make the jump... as long as you're driving fast enough. In other words, little luck is still more than zero skill, so it's more down to luck than skill. And yes, try slowing down after EMP hit you... oh wait, you can't. EMP disables everything but steering (well, steering is disabled at the moment you're hit, after that you can steer normally). So you can't slow down or accelerate. And even if you could slow down... you still have to accelerate to a high enough speed which... yes, you guessed correctly, is too high to do that from a stand still or low speeds, especially when you're not using the Speeder class. This problem is only aggravated on lower engine speeds, although I don't care much about those xD
Secondly, there's nothing cool about being spin by a Raptor and then unable to make the jump because you can't get enough speed. Reset won't help you here, you literally have to drive backwards to make it... The skill in such a route is down to keeping on it, not trying to have enough speed to make the jump... that's just frustrating piece of gameplay.

If we're talking about risk jumps that are challenging, then we're talking about jumping to a narrow platform on which there are speed pads or other things that will benefit you when compared with the standard route. In that situation when you get hit by an EMP or simply mess up, you'll land on the route below and will be slower than when simply taking the normal route. When you nail it though, you have sense of satisfaction AND you just pulled of some epic move.

Also, that jump wasn't epic in any way. Annoying and/or frustrating... yes, epic... no. The epic jump on that route is the one just before that one, that basically takes you to the other side of that part of the map.

Problem with similar jumps is that they are optional. And that was the only jump that really did that.

1. Transport reverse much? (well it's not jump but you get seriously penalized if you get hit by anything before the 90 degree vertical uphill)
2. This was optional too, there is another route.

1. Transport reverse is a track I don't particularly enjoy, mainly since the corner that was removed in this patch was brilliant in normal way but completely and utterly crap in reverse. So I avoided that like cancer. Although the speed required to go up that wall is lower than the speed required to make that jump, funnily enough...
That said, a row of speed pads will be placed (if it hasn't already) on the bottom of that vertical slope to make sure you'll always make it. Insider info
2. It wasn't optional in the sense you couldn't avoid it after choosing a certain route. Most other jumps either can be avoided while following the route or simply don't penalise you in such a stupid way. This one is basically a choice of "take the big jump that you'll fail or take the small jump that you won't make" when you've been hit by... essentially anything. So you were forced to a jump.

[Tathendal]

First of all, there's no skill involved in making that jump.

I disagree, OFC there is always skill. There is skill involved in every jump, every corner, every bump, every second of the race. In this particular jump you have to drive straight and land straight and possibly make small correctional manouvers and possibly use roll in air. I don't see how you can say there is no skill involved, with that logic there isn't skill involved in any driving.

Secondly, there's nothing cool about being spin by a Raptor and then unable to make the jump because you can't get enough speed. Reset won't help you here, you literally have to drive backwards to make it...

You are ofcourse entitled to your opinion, but this is entirely an opinion. I think it's cool and it would be cool in any movie or game, when it's not too easily abusable ofcourse.

Also, that jump wasn't epic in any way. Annoying and/or frustrating... yes, epic... no.

Again, your opinion. Even though I was talking in more general, and also referring Voo's suggestion for the jump, way in that point I made about not making the game 100 % of serious competitive play in mind. So my point was that cool track elements should be allowed in the game, even though there might be small chance of you not making it because of luck. (Also let's point out here that if enemy times e.g. an EMP on purpose right before you hit the jump, that is not luck but the enemy's skill to utilize his powerups and the environment.)

1. Transport reverse is a track I don't particularly enjoy, mainly since the corner that was removed in this patch was brilliant in normal way but completely and utterly crap in reverse. So I avoided that like cancer. Although the speed required to go up that wall is lower than the speed required to make that jump, funnily enough... That said, a row of speed pads will be placed (if it hasn't already) on the bottom of that vertical slope to make sure you'll always make it. Insider info

It is irrelevant whether you enjoy it or not. Also the speedpads won't help with this issue /the point I am making, since you won't gain speed from speedpads while hit by EMP or you won't probably hit the speedpads if you get hit by missile or gattling.

2. It wasn't optional in the sense you couldn't avoid it after choosing a certain route.

So it actually WAS optional. You can drive the track without taking that jump once -> optional. I don't care how you rationalize it, but you didn't have to take that route if you wanted to minimize risks (or hated that route).

[Ryu Makkuro]

All jumps are impacted by the EMP without exception

Then let's start counting the exceptions:
- every jump on Yuri + reverse (tested)
- every jump on Alhatra + reverse (tested)
- every jump on Transport + reverse (tested)
- now every jump on FIC Outpost + reverse (tested)
- no real jumps on Speedbowl (tested? xD)

You know... I think that jump on FIC Outpost was actually the exception

I disagree, OFC there is always skill. There is skill involved in every jump, every corner, every bump, every second of the race. In this particular jump you have to drive straight and land straight and possibly make small correctional manouvers and possibly use roll in air. I don't see how you can say there is no skill involved, with that logic there isn't skill involved in any driving.

You have to drive somewhat straight, you don't have to land straight, you don't have to make small correctional maneuvers and you most definitely don't need to use roll. The only thing you need there, is enough speed. That's what I call a "no-skill" jump because... well... the amount of skill required to push a button to go forward and drive somewhat straight is close to none (arguably literally none when looked at people with ability to drive).

You are ofcourse entitled to your opinion, but this is entirely an opinion. I think it's cool and it would be cool in any movie or game, when it's not too easily abusable ofcourse.

Pretty sure you wouldn't be saying that after you had to back up quite a long way few times in order to make that jump. Again, being shot and then realising you can't make the jump or simply falling down there, hitting reset button and appearing right in front of the jump ain't fun or cool. Because that means you need to start driving the opposite way just so you can progress forward. In a racing game, this apart from not making sense at all is highly frustrating. It's not an opinion here, because a piece of gameplay that is not down to skill but quite literally luck and can easily halt your progress massively, results in a frustrating experience.
Again, it's not an opinion because this is a well known fact in the gaming industry. And don't bring Dark Souls here, because unlike a random thing that comes flying your way against which you can't do a thing if you don't have the right tools at your disposal (which are also random), in there everything is down to skill. Which is most likely why it's so popular.

And movie? This is a racing game, not a movie where Hollywood tricks are the main thing. And the fact it's a movie is what makes those situations seem "cool", because first... it's not you being stuck there so you're not the one experiencing frustration, secondly it's an easy hollywood story trick, third because it allows the typical super character power of whatever moments (aka a cheap cliche).

So my point was that cool track elements should be allowed in the game, even though there might be small chance of you not making it because of luck. (Also let's point out here that if enemy times e.g. an EMP on purpose right before you hit the jump, that is not luck but the enemy's skill to utilize his powerups and the environment.)

I agree. However that particular track element aside from maybe being cool is definitely frustrating. Cool track elements are definitely a yes, but frustrating elements are a no. Simple as that. For example, a cool element could be that corkscrew thing implemented in Alhatra.
As to your EMP example, yes, that would indeed be the case, problem is, you'll most likely be hit by an EMP that comes from the other side of the map, aka someone who had no idea you were there. And this is an issue for 1st player, as lower position have almost no downtime which results in no drastic speed loss.

It is irrelevant whether you enjoy it or not. Also the speedpads won't help with this issue /the point I am making, since you won't gain speed from speedpads while hit by EMP or you won't probably hit the speedpads if you get hit by missile or gattling.

I hoped you'd realise that I explained why I forgot about that track. Oh well...
Also, row of speedpads = can't go up that slope without going through them.

Oh, btw, you can go up that slope when being hit by EMP. You'll barely make it as 1st player but you will make it. And the speedpads provide enough boost to acceleration that you'll easily make it even if your speed is 200km/h.

So it actually WAS optional. You can drive the track without taking that jump once -> optional. I don't care how you rationalize it, but you didn't have to take that route if you wanted to minimize risks (or hated that route).

Taking a jump that will fail or taking a jump that will fail is not minimising risk. It's like saying you have an option in route, you can exit the 1st alternate tunnel in Yuri on the bottom or top. It's the same route that results in exactly the same thing, one providing meaninglessly further jumping distance. An option is where there's a distinctive difference in result.

If the jump on the left would provide an actual viable route, sure, I'd agree. If you could tell that route has a must jump before you enter it, sure, I'd agree. But none of that applies. You have a choice of a downhill route that you have no idea where it goes and being lower is already a disadvantage on its own, on top of that being on an open wide space means you're more likely to be hit by a missile, or a wide cliff route that gives you protection from the missiles below and slightly from behind, you can see mostly where it's leading, and no jumps or anything can be seen. There's no indication of the risk you're taking whatsoever. None.

[potterman28wxcv]

All jumps are impacted by the EMP without exception

Then let's start counting the exceptions:
- every jump on Yuri + reverse (tested)
- every jump on Alhatra + reverse (tested)
- every jump on Transport + reverse (tested)
- now every jump on FIC Outpost + reverse (tested)
- no real jumps on Speedbowl (tested? xD)

Do you have videos ? I mean, how do you know it's "tested" ?

I disagree, OFC there is always skill. There is skill involved in every jump, every corner, every bump, every second of the race. In this particular jump you have to drive straight and land straight and possibly make small correctional manouvers and possibly use roll in air. I don't see how you can say there is no skill involved, with that logic there isn't skill involved in any driving.

You have to drive somewhat straight, you don't have to land straight, you don't have to make small correctional maneuvers and you most definitely don't need to use roll. The only thing you need there, is enough speed. That's what I call a "no-skill" jump because... well... the amount of skill required to push a button to go forward and drive somewhat straight is close to none (arguably literally none when looked at people with ability to drive).

Roll saved my life more than once.. For example the jump right after the letter-box shortcut on Yuri, it might be useful to use roll.

[Ryu Makkuro]

Do you have videos ? I mean, how do you know it's "tested" ?

Well, I took those jumps while I was hit with an EMP. Don't know how else you can test if EMP has any impact on jumping
It's not like I did it right now, just through all my playtime I can't recall a jump that I didn't took at least once while under an influence of an EMP. I did that, so it's possible and therefore tested, and not pulled from the rear

Feel free to correct that statement if you wish though.

Roll saved my life more than once.. For example the jump right after the letter-box shortcut on Yuri, it might be useful to use roll.

Yes, roll can be very useful. I never said it isn't. It saved my life a lot when I jump from a side of the tunnel etc. But we're talking about that single jump on Outpost. All that one needs is enough speed and relatively straight line aka don't aim for the walls.

[Tathendal]

The only thing you need there, is enough speed. That's what I call a "no-skill" jump because... well... the amount of skill required to push a button to go forward and drive somewhat straight is close to none (arguably literally none when looked at people with ability to drive).

Well I don't know what part of Outpost in your opinion then would require this skill you are talking about. You can pretty much drive the whole track without letting go of gas. Also, OK, we all get that you want to give the impression that you are good in the game, not everybody is your skill level. I think all jumps require skill even you think not.

Pretty sure you wouldn't be saying that after you had to back up quite a long way few times in order to make that jump.

Yes exactly this is the case. This has happened to me maybe once during my 64 hours with GRIP and I have managed to shoot someone so they fall maybe couple of times so I can't get a grip out of your thinking how this is a problem.

Again, being shot and then realising you can't make the jump or simply falling down there, hitting reset button and appearing right in front of the jump ain't fun or cool. Because that means you need to start driving the opposite way just so you can progress forward. In a racing game, this apart from not making sense at all is highly frustrating. It's not an opinion here, because a piece of gameplay that is not down to skill but quite literally luck and can easily halt your progress massively, results in a frustrating experience.

Well then I am sure it is no problem to make the reset point so that you spawn after the jump or in the other route.

Again, it's not an opinion because this is a well known fact in the gaming industry. And don't bring Dark Souls here, because unlike a random thing that comes flying your way against which you can't do a thing if you don't have the right tools at your disposal (which are also random), in there everything is down to skill. Which is most likely why it's so popular.

And movie? This is a racing game, not a movie where Hollywood tricks are the main thing. And the fact it's a movie is what makes those situations seem "cool", because first... it's not you being stuck there so you're not the one experiencing frustration, secondly it's an easy hollywood story trick, third because it allows the typical super character power of whatever moments (aka a cheap cliche).

You are putting words in to my mouth. I never said that those need to be the main thing. I am not saying this is a movie. I am saying that epic jumps are epic jumps and cool track elements are cool track elements, and there are things that would be awesome in a game, or in a movie, and it would be a shame to not include those "if they involve more luck than skill" by your words.

I don't get what Dark Souls has to do with this, and I don't get what is a well known fact in gaming industry. The frustration part can be fixed easily e.g. by tweaking the reset spawn point.

By your posts I assume you want GRIP to be some sort of supercompetitive racing game by eliminating all little bits of luck that might effect the outcome, well it is not going to be that in any case as far as I have understood what the game tries to be. Might be that I am wrong though. We disagree about that jump, in your opinion it is frustrating and in mine it is a fun track element. We clearly have different priorities in mind, and we both are not the devs, so we both can state our opinions and the devs will decide what they do. Therefore I won't continue this pointless discussion.

[WROB3L]

IMO the update is fairly good, but i dont know what were you guys thinking with the track changes, Mostly with transport. By "Completely rebuilt an area of the track that proved frustrating for players" You mean the actual hard part of the track? i really dont get it, and whats with the barriers on the bridge?!

Transport was perfect for what it was. Now this track difficulty level should be changed to very easy instead of easy.

[Queadah]

Difficulty change is intended. Let's see what happens when more tracks are introduced

[Ryu Makkuro]

Well I don't know what part of Outpost in your opinion then would require this skill you are talking about. You can pretty much drive the whole track without letting go of gas. Also, OK, we all get that you want to give the impression that you are good in the game, not everybody is your skill level. I think all jumps require skill even you think not.

Well, Outpost doesn't have a difficult jump on it. It's as simple as that. Yuri or Alhatra are a different story, especially Yuri, where you'll be using roll quite a bit, even more so if you're taking the alternate route at the start. You have to line up the jumps on those tracks a lot more carefully as well, especially when you want to get into some other routes or avoid having contact with the barriers or simply to avoid having to use roll etc.

The difficulty on Outpost comes from the bumpy terrain and all the blind corners where you never know what's behind them. It's a very high speed track, so it's only natural that it may feel "easy" to those that have a very good knowledge of the track and control of the car, but in general it is actually a rather challenging track when you don't know the track layout and your car control is barely average.

Also you can drive any track in the game flatout. That doesn't mean they are easy or that doing that is easy. Skill in an arcade racer such as GRIP comes from precision of driving. Not from slowing down or having enough speed for something. Those are only byproducts of being precise (or not precise). The more precise your driving is... the faster/better you are.

Yes exactly this is the case. This has happened to me maybe once during my 64 hours with GRIP and I have managed to shoot someone so they fall maybe couple of times so I can't get a grip out of your thinking how this is a problem.

To you just once. But not everyone has that much luck or simply isn't that good and won't be capable of taking that jump. It's not about what happened to you, but what can happen to anyone. Being locked from progressing is not an epic, cool or fun thing in any way.

Well then I am sure it is no problem to make the reset point so that you spawn after the jump or in the other route.

So you'd have to fall there to be able to cross it? With all due respect, but that's a stupid idea. There are a lot simpler solutions that don't require people failing, like a bridge, wallride around the jump, etc.

And movie? This is a racing game, not a movie where Hollywood tricks are the main thing.

You are putting words in to my mouth. I never said that those need to be the main thing. I am not saying this is a movie. I am saying that epic jumps are epic jumps and cool track elements are cool track elements, and there are things that would be awesome in a game, or in a movie, and it would be a shame to not include those "if they involve more luck than skill" by your words.

Yes, you never said those things. I said that hollywood tricks are the main thing of a Hollywood movie because they work there. They do stunts where even one thing would slightly wrong and whole thing is busted. Thing is... it's all set up. They don't have to bother with them being repetitive or with random things happening. Racing games on the other hand do have to deal with those bits. Which is why things that are cool and/or epic in a movie are not guaranteed to be cool and/or epic in a game.

I don't get what Dark Souls has to do with this, and I don't get what is a well known fact in gaming industry. The frustration part can be fixed easily e.g. by tweaking the reset spawn point.

Dark Souls = You fail a lot aka die. But there it's always down to players skill, never down to luck. Keyword here "never".

As to you not getting, well, try reading this part again.

It's not an opinion here, because a piece of gameplay that is not down to skill but quite literally luck and can easily halt your progress massively, results in a frustrating experience.

Again, it's not an opinion because this is a well known fact in the gaming industry.

In other words, any piece of gameplay that locks you from progressing is extremely avoided. They fixed it by removing the gap, but keeping the jump. So you still have a jump, but no more of the gap. That fix works for me perfectly.

By your posts I assume you want GRIP to be some sort of supercompetitive racing game by eliminating all little bits of luck that might effect the outcome, well it is not going to be that in any case as far as I have understood what the game tries to be. Might be that I am wrong though. We disagree about that jump, in your opinion it is frustrating and in mine it is a fun track element. We clearly have different priorities in mind, and we both are not the devs, so we both can state our opinions and the devs will decide what they do. Therefore I won't continue this pointless discussion.

Ok, let's imagine a new player racing on Norvos. He takes the cliff route because it looks cool. Problem is, he's not good with the car, so he spins out/crashes into a wall due to the bumpiness of that section. Then he continues and... falls down into the gap. Resets and... he then has to drive backwards to get enough speed, but on the way back with enough speed there's always the chance he will fail again and not make the jump. Resets and... same thing again.
After something like that a new player (especially nowadays) can get discouraged to a point where he'll post a negative review of the game pointing that the game has gameplay mechanics that lock him from progressing (which is a very valid point), maybe even refund the game. And although I personally wouldn't cry after such a player... losing sale from something like that is to say the least... stupid.

Would it be nice if GRIP had a nice competitive e-sports mode? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not, unless the game goes Free2Play and gets really popular which would allow Devs to actually do those things.
My point here is... I would like the game to be "easy to learn, hard to master", not "seems easy to learn, penalises in all the wrong ways, not really difficult to master". Giving a fair gameplay is more important than a "flashy gameplay". It will keep people playing it for longer, it's more newbie friendly and naturally more competitive side compatible. Games that are sold by their features usually end up being forgotten in a matter of days, while games with great gameplay tend to stay for years.

i really dont get it, and whats with the barriers on the bridge?!

Transport was perfect for what it was. Now this track difficulty level should be changed to very easy instead of easy.

Well, it was normal, so now it should be easy I call it "Glorified Speedbowl" from now on tbh xD

But I agree on basically everything else, especially the bridge. It allowed for some nice mine manouvers, now you're locked like in... every other racer out there. I understand that railing in Yuri in the valley, but not on that bridge ffs.

[Chris_CE]

Potty, could you maybe sum up the overall thoughts in this thread if possible?

As for changes to Transport: hang in there fellas, it's not done yet. I'm going to rework the last corner in the first tunnel at the start of the hill, plus add more obstacles later. There's plenty of ways to increase difficulty of a map, so rest assured, there will continue to be a challenge. Keep in mind that there's only 5 tracks as well. We want to have more hard and medium difficulty tracks in the game. Maybe even a nightmare racetrack

[Cybruiser57Péter]

So there will be no new updates for the private part?

[Ryu Makkuro]

Maybe even a nightmare racetrack

[0Blueaura]

the game could benefit from night version tracks, i mean, its not hard to change sky texture and change light into the night right?

perhaps, a special event track where there is a big meteor going to crash into the planet and it gets close each lap? but not exactly hit the map and hits the background when the race is finished

it should be easy right? (exclude the meteor part )

[Tathendal]

+1 to night tracks

They could be also slightly (or greatly) different version of the daytime track for variation with relatively less work at least compared to a whole new track (referencing my earlier post on this thread here http://www.cagedelement.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3746#p16288

[VooDooQky]

I might not remember well, but some time ago Chris mentioned something about weather and daytime variability, which could be set by the player, or make it random.

[Chris_CE]

If I were to do a night version of a track, which one would you guys most like to see?

We wouldn't allow custom time of day, but rather just supply different versions ourselves, as it requires quite a bit of work (adding lights, changing fog, post processing and other things. It's not a negligible amount of work)

So there will be no new updates for the private part?

Private branch has multiplayer, and since multiplayer is broken in the latest version, we haven't updated it yet. We will once the relevant bugs are fixed