Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

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Queadah
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Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:42 pm

Ok folks. GRIP is slowly but surely building up as a good game and we're watching this unfold.
Now I'm about to propose something to take off from there and make the gap between "good" and "f*cking awesome".
Standing out of the pack yknow?

What GRIP needs in light touch is meta and IDENTITY! To this effect, here's an idea:
  • A 3rd pickup slot for tank class!! :o
Now before you punch me into paralysis, hear me out. A fully functional slot might be overkill (could be tested though), so make it a buffer slot!!
  • Tank class needs to stand out on something other than design or a few stats
  • The 3rd slot would only be able to "hold" an item and NOT use it from there (to stock it to auto fill an empty slot)
  • when/if stacking pickups is implemented, you increase the odds to complement a powerup you already have with the buffer one (think of a TETRIS meta game of sorts where you try to match items)
  • when your 3 slots are full, using 1 powerup makes the buffer one slide into one of the 2 active slots
Think about it people. GRIP needs to live it's own life now. It is time we at least try audacious stuff :)

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:50 am

It would be interesting, but how do you balance it out? Would you nerf the stats of the tanks? Or would you add other bonuses to the other classes?
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:32 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:It would be interesting, but how do you balance it out? Would you nerf the stats of the tanks? Or would you add other bonuses to the other classes?

Simple ^^, nerfing the tank stats wouldn't be necessary. What you COULD do is giving full air control to the speeder class (roll and pitch - to allow missile evasive action?) thus you emphasize maneuverability for this class. My only thing is the medium class... I'm still thinking of a special ability for them... I'm sure I'll find something...

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:39 am

Queadah wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:It would be interesting, but how do you balance it out? Would you nerf the stats of the tanks? Or would you add other bonuses to the other classes?

Simple ^^, nerfing the tank stats wouldn't be necessary. What you COULD do is giving full air control to the speeder class (roll and pitch - to allow missile evasive action?) thus you emphasize maneuverability for this class. My only thing is the medium class... I'm still thinking of a special ability for them... I'm sure I'll find something...

It would be a very good idea to have full air control for the speeder class.

If someone manages to find something nice for medium class, I would be all up for it :)
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:56 am

Queadah wrote:(roll and pitch - to allow missile evasive action?)

Pointless thing. You won't be able to avoid a missile if you're in mid-air (especially when in mid-air). The only way so far to avoid it is with wallriding and driving near obstacles. Heck, allowing those things would solidify the "flight simulator" comments without making the class any better... or controllable. I wouldn't be surprised if people would ask to disable it because it messes up their landings and what not.

Now, to the subject at hand. The 3 pick ups are first, extremely situational, which makes it highly unreliable and second, when you actually can benefit from them, they become extremely OP. Both things are what you want to avoid at ANY and all costs in a multiplayer game.

Also, what's with the lack of identity? The tanks are heavy and stable, slow from the start but give a bit of straight and they'll be storming through. You can shoot them with a raptor and that won't do much to them if anything. And they have massive look to them. Compare that to the other two classes and they are the most standing out class in the game. I advise to drive them more before coming up with things like "they need more identity".

Also, given the state of the game, it's only natural that the car most people will be driving will be the newest one. When Dreadnought first came in... everyone (almost) was driving it. Cyclone comes in, almost everyone are driving it. Next car will come in... same thing. Until the game will be in a more or less finished state and the car list will be also near the finished state, this trend will continue. After that you can start wondering if the given class needs more identity. Right now... it's all in WIP so everything is subject to change more or less and with that doing anything to the cars is pointless. Especially something that has a long list of issues (this would be way too long of an essay post to list even most of them), like a 3rd pickup.

As they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix". In this situation, that is the best possible option anyone can take. Wait till the game matures to a point where car balancing will be the only thing you can do.
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:23 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:I advise to drive them more before coming up with things like "they need more identity".

I don't accept that argument. Coming from someone that last played the 31th of October and clocked "only" 52h (your steam stat - I have almost double and last played yesterday, not that I intend to do a dick size contest), you should leave your high horses BS for someone else.

Ryu, you're a good guy, but I thought our private conversation would make you not throw a wall of text here in public ;)

Again, I'm saying GRIP cars could use more identity/specialization. Agree or not, but you can't disagree meta mechanics would be a sweet addition for GRIP to stand out, whatever the mechanics chosen in the end :)

@Potty: yeah, I think it would be good if someone had a neat idea for medium class too ^^

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:34 pm

Queadah wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:I advise to drive them more before coming up with things like "they need more identity".

I don't accept that argument. Coming from someone that last played the 31th of October and clocked "only" 52h (your steam stat - I have almost double and last played yesterday, not that I intend to do a dick size contest), you should leave your high horses BS for someone else.

Ryu, you're a good guy, but I thought our private conversation would make you not throw a wall of text here in public ;)

There is no need to be personal. I know the two of you have standpoints that are often opposite, which can lead to some heated debate, but there is no need to display that in public. Let's try to stay as much on topic as possible please. This is an idea worth discussing, and I believe we can do this in a civil manner, without relying on condescending tones.
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby ApexAzimuth » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:02 am

I think the cars have identity already. Balancing of vehicle handling is still in a pretty early state, and I think the way they "feel" along with their visual identity will be all they need.

GRIP strives to be a fairly competitive racing game, which means balance is very important. Giving cars unique "Abilities" like full air control or a third pickup slot can REALLY tip the delicate balance. At best it gives the cars more of a "Theme" and compels players to drive certain cars for certain tracks or race styles. At worst it creates an incredibly complex balancing task for development and ultimately leads to constant "flavor of the month" cars, with the flavor being whichever car got buffed the most in the last point release, which means everyone that wants to be competitive will be driving the same car. Not much "identity" in that situation.

Rollcage had it right with car balance. There typically wasn't a "Best" to drive (Excluding Yuri of course.). Depending on your driving style, your strengths and weaknesses as a driver, or what kind of approach you wanted to take in the race would determine which car you drive. I'm already seeing this in the multiplayer games right now. Alot of people like to be quick and agile and drive the Cyclone, but a few people like the raw speed of the Dreadnought, even if it means stumbling a little when the race throws off your flow. I've been enjoying the Dominator for its balance between the two, and despite some claims that it's not fast enough to justify it's handling inferiority to the Cyclone, It's still just a tad faster, and if I keep a clean racing line, I reap the benefit big time. I haven't seen any particular trend for one of these cars dominating the competition either. It seems entirely up to the driver's style and occasionally the layout of the track. This is EXACTLY the kind of balance I want to see in GRIP. Your choice of car reflects your driving style, not a special perk that you need to utilize for a specific situation.

So, shortly- I think that the cars should all PLAY the same, but FEEL different. I say no to game mechanic perks exclusive to certain cars.

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:57 am

ApexAzimuth wrote:GRIP strives to be a fairly competitive racing game, which means balance is very important. Giving cars unique "Abilities" like full air control or a third pickup slot can REALLY tip the delicate balance. At best it gives the cars more of a "Theme" and compels players to drive certain cars for certain tracks or race styles. At worst it creates an incredibly complex balancing task for development.

+1, it's not because an idea takes tuning that it should be discarded.

Let's not blow this out of proportion:
  • if adding a 3rd pickup slot you can't trigger and air control (that is useful only "in the air") is truly game breaking, then let's not try to add any more depth to gameplay at all (the buffer slot idea is not even mine, it's TheOnLY's, and I think it's brillant).
potterman28wxcv wrote:If someone manages to find something nice for medium class, I would be all up for it :)

I'm entirely not sure but I just thought of putting the "jump" button back only for that class ^^ could be funny lol

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:09 am

Queadah wrote:not that I intend to do a dick size contest

Then why did you even brought that up? You know perfectly well why my playtime is "only" that. I have issues with the game that others don't get at all or as much, which means there's no point in me playing until those issues will be addressed. Especially when those issues impact my performance in a race quite a bit. I'm not really sold on racing with a handicap or even playing the game at all.

Queadah wrote:Agree or not, but you can't disagree meta mechanics would be a sweet addition for GRIP to stand out, whatever the mechanics chosen in the end :)

Meta mechanics? You mean the thing that destroys any personal choice and throws down everything to one or few play styles you have to use or you're gonna lose otherwise? You know... I think I disagree. That is the worst thing you could add to GRIP. In fact that would just make it not stand out, because all the other racing games have "meta mechanics" in a form of a specific car with a specific build.

ApexAzimuth wrote:So, shortly- I think that the cars should all PLAY the same, but FEEL different. I say no to game mechanic perks exclusive to certain cars.

This. This so much. From an "accountant" perspective, cars should be all the same in the end aka play out the same. From a "driver" perspective they should be very different aka feel different. And they already do that. And THAT's something that can make GRIP stand out from all the other racers.
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:49 am

Ryu is right: if the devs go for the META route, the arcade part of the game will be ruined for good and kills the fun out off.
Think about Starcraft 2 MP you can play a single match whitout using a "META strategy", because if you think "outside of the box" or try to little spice things up, you are going to be 6 feet deeply stomped to the ground, by a meta player who is doing nothing, but repeat the same thing over and over on every match.
I don't know how a meta player play an arcade combat race.

My personal view of "meta gaming" so please no.


and 1 more thing somebody like playing other games (or do other things) than just playing GRIP.
Science WINS again!!!
Then they opened a portal to another dimension and kidnapping the locals.
The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
and then... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE :twisted:

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:59 am

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:the arcade part of the game will be ruined for good and kills the fun out off.

Someone explain to me HOW full air control to speeder class is game breaking?
  • Does it make the game go full simulator?
  • Does it increase the difficulty of playing the affected cars?
  • Does it waterdown the difficulty of playing the affected cars, making it "insta win" cars?
  • Does it mess existing driving behaviour of the car (driving = on road) ?
  • Does it make you cross more air distance?
  • Does it make you go faster?
  • Does it make you accelerate more?
  • Does it make you automatically dogde incoming weapon
  • Then how is this a going to "6 feet deeply stomped to the ground"??
The only thing it does that I see, before you add arguments, is that it:
  • potentially helps you land better
  • helps you do barrel rolls to gain points in Ultimate mode
This class is already more manoeuvrable than the others, so you already crash less if you wanted to go there (plus physics will be fixed in the future so other cars crash less too, reducing the gap).

I CAN understand the vote of sanction for my slamming someone here that wanted to go personal but please. Whatever feelings you and I have. This is NOT me wanting to push it. This is me wanting to see something MORE SUBSTANTIAL than "it will ruin it". Indulge me please. Tell me how IN BULLET POINTS. All the more so that other car class can have non game breaking capabilities to mirror that.

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:19 am

@potty:
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Remember the jump possibility we had in the early builds? ;)
  • Put it back, perhaps in the way of an auto-flip jump for the med class only (I wrote regular for lack of a better word)
  • Add a gauge that auto recharges so it's not abused (no double jump like TF2 scout :P)
  • Kill the jump possibility only during the 3...2...1...Go race start so it doesn't mess the starting grid :)
  • Kill it when airborne so you don't double jump here either
Here's my idea. It's potentially missile avoider but it could balance the other cars' advantage.

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Broscar » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:23 am

I like the idea of differentiating the classes more and giving them more of an 'identity', so...
+1!

(I also like the stuff you guys have come up with so far :D)

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Tathendal » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:44 am

Queadah wrote:Someone explain to me HOW full air control to speeder class is game breaking?
  • Does it waterdown the difficulty of playing the affected cars, making it "insta win" cars?


I personally think it maybe could be a little too overpowered attribute, but I can be wrong, and ofc if balancing is success then.... Why not!

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:41 pm

I'm not really sold on the Medium vehicle jump. I don't really see why I would be using it. When you stay on the road, you have a better acceleration and it's a lot easier for you to turn.

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:Ryu is right: if the devs go for the META route, the arcade part of the game will be ruined for good and kills the fun out off.
Think about Starcraft 2 MP you can play a single match whitout using a "META strategy", because if you think "outside of the box" or try to little spice things up, you are going to be 6 feet deeply stomped to the ground, by a meta player who is doing nothing, but repeat the same thing over and over on every match.
I don't know how a meta player play an arcade combat race.

My personal view of "meta gaming" so please no.


and 1 more thing somebody like playing other games (or do other things) than just playing GRIP.

Meta happens when there is a mechanism sufficiently unbalanced that people have to use it if they want to win.

You don't implement or decide to go META - meta is a consequence of your choices. You can try to control it indirectly, but it's definitely not a game design principle. At least, that's how i understand the word "meta" : it's a way to measure the game balance.

Back to your argument, as soon as you introduce different vehicle stats there is going to be a risk of META. It's impossible to have a 100% fair GRIP if people drives different cars. But if you strip away all car varieties, it's not really fun anymore. Just imagine a GRIP where there would only be the Dominator, and all the other cars would just be skins.

On the other hand, if you introduce too much of specializations (pickup preselection, stat modifiers, ultimate skills a-la Overwatch, ..), you can't balance everything and people will only use that one combination that is impossible to win without.

Introducing vehicle-specific behaviour might prove to be a balancing challenge, but it's not absolutely bad. There is a middle ground between none-at-all and too-much.
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:32 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:I'm not really sold on the Medium vehicle jump. I don't really see why I would be using it. When you stay on the road, you have a better acceleration and it's a lot easier for you to turn.

Actually it's rather powerful, I had 5 scenario in mind:
  • There's a mine in a narrow path, you jump and go over it!! (on this point alone, it's almost OP lol, hence the regen. bar)
  • You're in a tunnel, you jump and end up on the opposite wall. In Biodome for instance, you could detach from the ceiling ;)
  • You're about to take over someone cuz you boosted, instead of taking his left or right, you go over him :lol:
  • When the driller is implemented, timed appropriately, you can jump and see the beam passing beneath you, effectively dodging the shot
  • Jumping could give you a chance to avoid incoming missiles?
Imo it's arguably on par with the buffer slot idea, but a better idea could do too ;)

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:13 pm

Queadah wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:I'm not really sold on the Medium vehicle jump. I don't really see why I would be using it. When you stay on the road, you have a better acceleration and it's a lot easier for you to turn.

Actually it's rather powerful, I had 5 scenario in mind:
  • There's a mine in a narrow path, you jump and go over it!! (on this point alone, it's almost OP lol, hence the regen. bar)
  • You're in a tunnel, you jump and end up on the opposite wall. In Biodome for instance, you could detach from the ceiling ;)
  • You're about to take over someone cuz you boosted, instead of taking his left or right, you go over him :lol:
  • When the driller is implemented, timed appropriately, you can jump and see the beam passing beneath you, effectively dodging the shot
  • Jumping could give you a chance to avoid incoming missiles?
Imo it's arguably on par with the buffer slot idea, but a better idea could do too ;)

Hmm I didn't see it that way. I guess that would be fine. Doesn't look too overpowered or underpowered compared to the two other buffs.

Maybe the air control would be really situational though. For example on Superbowl - what use could you make of it ?
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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby TheOnLY » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:45 pm

I don't really like how one of them would be passive (buffer slot) while the other two are active (require a button press to work). I think if class specific features would be added you would want them all to be passive

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Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:44 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:Maybe the air control would be really situational though. For example on Superbowl - what use could you make of it ?

Yeah, full air control for the speeders might be the weakest. You can still make jumps in superbowl if you use the edges of the track but this specific map makes it less relevant indeed.
TheOnLY wrote:I don't really like how one of them would be passive (buffer slot) while the other two are active (require a button press to work). I think if class specific features would be added you would want them all to be passive

You're right, in fact, only the jump ability would be truly active (and require special button mapping) since the speeders' full air control would require only existing control keys (for pitch and roll), making it more an "extension" of the driving.

I think it could be fair though, as it'd require effort from the player for very substantial results (e.g. jumping over a mine. It's best not to make it automatic).


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