Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Talk about Grip's metal beasts
User avatar
Tiakh
Early Supporter 5
Early Supporter 5
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:52 am
Location: Germany

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Tiakh » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:55 am

Hmm i think in a normal race this could be balanced, and actually interesting. However adding more movement options, like air control and manuel jumping will require more driving skill, which isnt bad, but will reduce the focus on the high speed wall riding, which is the main feature of the game. Especially new players will have a even harder time getting into this game with new mechanics like this.
E.g. aircontrol, is nice to have for skilled players, but for new players it´s just another option to mess up their landing. Thinking of Distance a good implemented Air control in a racing game is quite difficult because in air you have more movement directions and rotations than on the ground, which could be quite confusing if you re not used to it. So in the end the speedster class, which should be the easier one to drive becomes much more difficult.
Im not saying these are bad ideas. Actually they could spice up the gameplay quite a bit. Im just not sure if its really necessary to make the game a better player experience.
Balance with these new perks is already off, depending on the game mode. In the parkour mode the jump button or aircontrol could be really good. In Arena the tank is the best pick with 3 power ups.

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:58 am

Tiakh wrote:However adding more movement options, like air control and manuel jumping will require more driving skill, which isnt bad, but will reduce the focus on the high speed wall riding, which is the main feature of the game. Especially new players will have a even harder time getting into this game with new mechanics like this.

Well, yes and no :). Jumping can be ignored altogether and air control can remain unused I guess (the buffer slot is transparent in use).
  • these features would give meat to grind for a potential tutorial for new players viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3731
  • for instance: learn how to jump:
    _over a mine on the ground/ceiling
    _over an opponent
  • or, learn how to use the air control from a large jump
  • etc...
Last edited by Queadah on Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tathendal
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Tathendal » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:09 pm

The air control could be implemented such as
gas = pitch up
brake = pitch down
left/right = roll (as is now)
hold handbrake+left/right = yaw

Pitch up and down would be logical to be gas and brake but then you could not accelerate while in air without pitching. I suppose yaw would be most difficult to implement controls-wise

TheOnLY
Early Supporter 4
Early Supporter 4
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:23 am

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby TheOnLY » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:30 pm

Tathendal wrote:The air control could be implemented such as
gas = pitch up
brake = pitch down
left/right = roll (as is now)
hold handbrake+left/right = yaw

So it differs from the other cars in therms of controls from the other cars? Still not sold :?

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:56 pm

Tathendal wrote:The air control could be implemented such as
gas = pitch up
brake = pitch down
left/right = roll (as is now)
hold handbrake+left/right = yaw

For gamepads, I rekon it could be pretty intuitive (using the stick). For keyboards, the arrows would do/ A-W-D (for US; Q-Z-D for EU, or whatever it is). I'm with TheOnLY on: "it shouldn't differ from the other cars in terms of controls" so as to be as transparent as possible, which is why I'm not sure about the yaw.

Roll + pitch + the flight UI appearing during air time could be enough of an appeal. At least, something related to agility for the Speeders would be well suited for a class specialization.

User avatar
Tathendal
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Tathendal » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:31 pm

Oh we use qwerty keyboards in EU, too :) I think azerty in Greece or something though...

I think yaw would be the single advantageous manouver and as all cars have roll, only adding pitch wouldn't make that much advantage

TheOnLY
Early Supporter 4
Early Supporter 4
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:23 am

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby TheOnLY » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:37 pm

What about having a truly passive thing like a recharging shield?
It could recharge over like 45 or more seconds and then deplete giving a free shield when there wasn't a shield already deployed. If there already was one it would just replace this one once it gets destroyed. I don't think that it would be too op because I haven't really seen somebody get a huge lead with a speedster and that is the only situation where it is really strong.

Right now the Speedsters are blown out of the way easily and it would be even worse with a buffer slot for the tanks.
Speedsters have no defensive capabilities at the moment, because even they can't dodge the rockets.
It would be kind of reasonable why they aren't heavily armored then too: They have a shield.

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:54 pm

TheOnLY wrote:What about having a truly passive thing like a recharging shield?
It could recharge over like 45 or more seconds and then deplete giving a free shield when there wasn't a shield already deployed. If there already was one it would just replace this one once it gets destroyed. I don't think that it would be too op because I haven't really seen somebody get a huge lead with a speedster and that is the only situation where it is really strong.

That would basically give assassin-immunity to speedsters when they are far away.. Not sure if it's a good idea.

Tathendal wrote:The air control could be implemented such as
gas = pitch up
brake = pitch down
left/right = roll (as is now)
hold handbrake+left/right = yaw

The problem is that gaz and brake are already used in-air to increase/reduce your amount of propulsion. You can brake while in the air currently, which allows you to shorten your jump. On the other hand, you can accelerate in mid-air to make your jump longer. Your control scheme would override this mechanism, that i believe to be very useful (i use it a lot on Yuri Industrial)

Tathendal wrote:Oh we use qwerty keyboards in EU, too :) I think azerty in Greece or something though...

azerty is in France, i don't know any other country who uses it. But we're going a bit off-topic here :p
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

TheOnLY
Early Supporter 4
Early Supporter 4
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:23 am

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby TheOnLY » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:20 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:That would basically give assassin-immunity to speedsters when they are far away.. Not sure if it's a good idea.

Aren't the assassins supposed to lean to turn around at some point anyway?

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:23 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:The problem is that gaz and brake are already used in-air to increase/reduce your amount of propulsion. You can brake while in the air currently, which allows you to shorten your jump. On the other hand, you can accelerate in mid-air to make your jump longer. Your control scheme would override this mechanism, that i believe to be very useful (i use it a lot on Yuri Industrial)

100% true. Using already existing mapping, it would be full roll only (which might be too weak a feature) :/.

I've got a bit of a crazy idea (active ability though) that addresses:
  • TheOnLY's idea of more defense
  • Potty's concern of it being an assassin denier
  • my input that I think it should be agility related
  • and this weird idea viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2092
Aside from the full roll, give Speeders a... 180° ability on handbrake drift! :o
(see video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFoIDQxq0K4)
  • keep the camera focused on track
  • car goes head to tail but you still have to turn camera to see behind
  • switch controls upon 180° so that normal car handling applies while you drive head to tail
  • if you hit terrain and mess up, controls go back to normal
  • done right, you could fire weapons to opponents behind (!)
  • you could use your rear shield to block threats in front of you (?! - mines and, in the future, assassins)
  • you could destroy incoming scorpions with the gattler (you'd have to make scorpions destructible in that scenario though)
  • you resume normal position by doing another 180°/the car auto-resumes normal position after x seconds
I know it's a bit daring and skill based (depending on the implementation though - make it semi automatic upon a certain drift threshold), but the satisfaction of pulling that and mastering it... Damn! Speedbowl in a Speeder would have a different flavour all of a sudden :)

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:10 am

TheOnLY wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:That would basically give assassin-immunity to speedsters when they are far away.. Not sure if it's a good idea.

Aren't the assassins supposed to lean to turn around at some point anyway?

At some point yeah. But maybe at some point the shield will be switchable front/behind.

Queadah wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:The problem is that gaz and brake are already used in-air to increase/reduce your amount of propulsion. You can brake while in the air currently, which allows you to shorten your jump. On the other hand, you can accelerate in mid-air to make your jump longer. Your control scheme would override this mechanism, that i believe to be very useful (i use it a lot on Yuri Industrial)

100% true. Using already existing mapping, it would be full roll only (which might be too weak a feature) :/.

I've got a bit of a crazy idea (active ability though) that addresses:
  • TheOnLY's idea of more defense
  • Potty's concern of it being an assassin denier
  • my input that I think it should be agility related
  • and this weird idea viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2092
Aside from the full roll, give Speeders a... 180° ability on handbrake drift! :o

Good luck implementing that on the physics engine x)
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:35 pm

Yeah it's toast. I think TheOnLY is onto something with defensiveness.

edit: Other proposal. Aside from full roll, make the Speeders able to consume a powerup for health (say 5% health gradually so your slot is unavailable for, say 15 seconds).
  • The amount of repair as to be low enough (5% sounds right as it is half a scorpion I think, 2 and a half gattling bullets and currently 1/6 of an assassin - depending on the car)
  • pickups disabled, that advantage disappears, but so does the tank bonus! Medium car class could keep the jump ability regardless, just like Speeders full roll remains.
  • The counterpart, in arena particularly, is that you trade longevity at the expense of offensiveness (something less to shoot at your foes).
  • With car non-destructible, trade the powerup consumption for... the powerup in the other slot turning into a shield (a powerup has to be there 1st - so you sacrificed 2 powerup and 1 slot's availability momentarily).
  • This could be balanced
My only concern is that the effect would be inconsistent depending on destructible cars unabled or not. No point in regen. health when cars can't go boom.

edit2: lol or simply make the 1 powerup consumption (disabling the corresponding slot for 15sec) that transforms the other you have into a shield. It works both cars destructible or not.

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:53 am

Queadah wrote:Yeah it's toast. I think TheOnLY is onto something with defensiveness.

edit: Other proposal. Aside from full roll, make the Speeders able to consume a powerup for health (say 5% health gradually so your slot is unavailable for, say 15 seconds).
[list][*]The amount of repair as to be low enough (5% sounds right as it is half a scorpion I think, 2 and a half gattling bullets and currently 1/6 of an assassin - depending on the car)

A Scorpion is 33% the health of a Dreadnought currently. Same for assassin. A mine is 25%. And gattling might be between 1 and 2% per bullet.

With your solution, it's basically a 20% health per minute regen. That sounds good enough, considering a race is around 5 minutes.

But the handicap.. Not sure if I would use it while racing to be honest. If I want to have say 25% back (to negate the damage of a mine), I would have to stay with only one pickup for more than a minute.

In terms of intuition, I would see this more for the Medium class. Tank = big HP bag that fires on everyone on sight. Speedster = very fast and very agile car. Medium = normal car, has a health regen upgrade.

Queadah wrote:edit2: lol or simply make the 1 powerup consumption (disabling the corresponding slot for 15sec) that transforms the other you have into a shield. It works both cars destructible or not.

I prefer this to TheOnLY's solution. It can save you from awkward situations, but if you use it, then you're gonna be restricted for the next 15 seconds. I like that. You could use it to get a temporary shield while boosting for example.

This would fit really well with the Speedster - he overtakes you, you shoot a missile at him, and.. surprise shield !
There's still the issue of assassin-immunity when he is leading. But as you said earlier, these guys does not have much max speed, so maybe it's ok
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:39 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:But as you said earlier, these guys does not have much max speed, so maybe it's ok
... and strenght, so somehow you balance their paper thin resist... with a drawback! 8-)


As for controls, hit the 2 pickup keys simultaneously.
(Holding them both could be for pickup stacking --if it's not automatic-- and holding 1 pickup key would be for switching the shield in front --or whatever--)

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:16 am

Queadah wrote:As for controls, hit the 2 pickup keys simultaneously.
(Holding them both could be for pickup stacking --if it's not automatic-- and holding 1 pickup key would be for switching the shield in front --or whatever--)

That's not deterministic. Say you have scorpion on the left, and gattling on the right.. Which one do you choose?
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:46 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:That's not deterministic. Say you have scorpion on the left, and gattling on the right.. Which one do you choose?

No need! In what I had in mind, one pickup is consumed (sacrificed/disappears + the slot becomes temporarily unavailable) and the other turns into a shield so you really have to get your 2 slots full to make the bonus work. That shield comes at a price :lol:

By default I'd say the one on the right is burnt and the one on the left turns into a shield. The other way round changes nothing.

iamthatiam
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:51 am

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby iamthatiam » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:36 pm


User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:03 pm

Reviving that thread. Time has passed and... has given us the jump ability we discussed earlier here, but also the nitro!

Updating to new elements, an idea would be leaving:

  • the jumping to the speedsters (so they have the maneuverability and can jump to these extra pads on ceiling and dodge sh*t since they are the weakest)
  • the nitro-ing to the medium (err... because!)
  • dat 3rd buffer pickup slot for tanks yay
Sooo... ? I still could live with car classes more distinct. So far they exist only in name and appearance.

User avatar
Chris_CE
Grip Developer
Grip Developer
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:12 am

Some cool suggestions Que, but this will take a lot of thought and balancing. Perhaps a conversation to propose in another thread or on Steam/Discord/Skype (general chat)
Game Director
GRIP

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Tank class: 3 pickup slots °.°

Postby Queadah » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:54 am

I don't see this as a balancing issue. I had this discussion with Gully. On speedster vs tanks, times are super close on Alhatra. You're not breaking them if speedster are allowed to jump (tanks not) and Tanks have 1 more slot (when speedster not).

Current facts:
  • Car classes exist only in name:
    people in Discord keep wondering if one car is "medium" or "speedster". Vague stats don't cut it.
  • GRIP is like playing TF2 where only Medic class is available with a single loadout:
    all cars are "do-it-all" with the same functions, 0 perks.
  • Solution: create interest from a class to another

Speedsters
  • Lightest racing rigs: give em the jumpin'
  • Makes sense they could jump when others not since too heavy,
    goes on par with their maneuverability, nothing shocking
  • They could dodge things, reach path and upside down speedpads other cars would not

Tanks
  • Thoughest and buffest motherf*ckers around? Prove it with that 3rd slot
  • Make it up to them with more teeth when they have no accel, get our blood pumping
  • Can be a buffer slot just to hold an item if too OP. Would move to an active slot as soon as 1 is free

Medium
  • This one is tricky. How can an average car be average?
  • Thought of the nitro feature but why would other cars not have it, I'm unsure.
  • Thoughts people?

Opened the bridge on Steam for everyone to throw sh*t at it ;)
http://steamcommunity.com/app/396900/di ... 790739185/


Return to “Vehicles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests

cron