Car physics

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SLOT
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Car physics

Postby SLOT » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:44 pm

I really want to point out one thing about the original RC1 and RC2.

In RC1 the physics was really harsh and hard at times, it was rather easy to lose control at top speeds and accidently do endless barrel rolls near round grooves. Most importantly during long jumps the car tended to flip and face the wrong direction. However, the feeling of speed was immense.

In RC2 developers simplified the physics, it became easier to control the car, but the feeling of high speed was lost, sometimes it even felt that the car is on rails.

Therefore, my point is that it is very important to take the best from both games, the subsonic speeds of RC1 and more fluent controls of RC2 with controllable long jumps and smart chaotic behavior if I may put it that way. Because it is very frustrating to lose the grip (Ba Dum Tss) and jump around knowing that all your opponents are far ahead already.

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Re: Car physics

Postby landvaarder » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:55 pm

My only problem with the first rollcage is how little bumps on walls are absorbed
I personally love the lack of control in the air, as it adds to the challenge
You need to think of how to aproach a ramp as to not flip your car out of control

Giving cars air control takes away some of that challenge and scaryness of aproaching a ramp
That is one of the reasons stage 2 feels so slow: there is little danger (in my opinion)
I say no air control but make the car more forgiving on bumps (relative to rc1)
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Re: Car physics

Postby SLOT » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:37 pm

landvaarder wrote:My only problem with the first rollcage is how little bumps on walls are absorbed
Giving cars air control takes away some of that challenge and scaryness of aproaching a ramp



Well that’s precisely what I mean – the game encourages you to go as fast as you possibly can but be afraid of jumps. To my mind high speed goes side to side with flying so taking away the air control takes a bit from this speeding frenzy, which the game is about.

Just look at this part here https://youtu.be/PWGawtEFL8w?t=34

The track itself screams: JUMP-JUMP-JUMP!!! However, when you jump your gigantic tank flips in the air like a pancake.

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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:39 pm

You know what you do on that bit? If you think the car's going to land and flip over, let go of the throttle. 9/10 the car will land and pull a little wheelie but then come back down facing the right way.

... And honestly, that jump is why that map is my favourite one in the game. Needs more jumps like that.
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Re: Car physics

Postby SLOT » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:44 pm

KazzyMac wrote:You know what you do on that bit? If you think the car's going to land and flip over, let go of the throttle. 9/10 the car will land and pull a little wheelie but then come back down facing the right way.


50/50 with what I tried. I even thought that there is some sophisticated throttle technique during jumps to stay upright.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Broscar » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:54 pm

RC2 is boring. Incredibly boring. Low skill ceiling, cars basically drive themselves etc.
Part of what makes RC1 more exciting is the fact you actively have to try and drive at your absolute best even if you're far ahead, 'cause the one time you mess up, you'll feel the pain.

Is it frustrating to bump into a wall and have your car fly all over the place? Hell yes.
But a game needs ups and downs to be exciting, in my opinion. That's why we have game over screens.

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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:08 pm

SLOT wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:You know what you do on that bit? If you think the car's going to land and flip over, let go of the throttle. 9/10 the car will land and pull a little wheelie but then come back down facing the right way.


50/50 with what I tried. I even thought that there is some sophisticated throttle technique during jumps to stay upright.


Nope. The cars actually have their own automatic self-righting system when airborne (it's why on Daytona the car starts to nosedive on the big jump but then starts to straighten back up near the end). it's just very subtle, though in RCII it's much more noticeable -- you can actually steer the cars in midair on Stage II because of it. >.>;


But nah, in fairness I actually enjoy the physics in the original over the sequel. It's harder and more unforgiving, you learn to drive the car, rather than the car driving itself, and that makes it more fun and rewarding. And yes, it makes the crashes more painful, but then the crashes are part of the game too.
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Re: Car physics

Postby SLOT » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Broscar wrote:RC2 is boring. Incredibly boring. Low skill ceiling, cars basically drive themselves etc.
Part of what makes RC1 more exciting is the fact you actively have to try and drive at your absolute best even if you're far ahead, 'cause the one time you mess up, you'll feel the pain.

Is it frustrating to bump into a wall and have your car fly all over the place? Hell yes.
But a game needs ups and downs to be exciting, in my opinion. That's why we have game over screens.


I hear and completely agree with you! An old-school gamer you are, as probably most of us here who love the original RC and waiting for the upcoming Grip. But the times and the gamers have changed and that fact has to be taken into account.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Broscar » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:12 pm

SLOT wrote:But the times and the gamers have changed and that fact has to be taken into account.

So forsaken the existing fanbase in an effort to try and please a new demographic, which might actually also like the fact that the game doesn't play itself?

Seems like a solid business plan. Whatever could go wrong?

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Re: Car physics

Postby Mystical » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:50 pm

Honestly, I think what'd be best for the game would be making RC1 physics default. They might be more challenging, but personally, I find them more fluid and generally fun. They really allow for some crazy stuff to happen.

On the other hand, you could do it like quake: Have a vanilla physics model and a promode physics model.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Moo » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:50 pm

Broscar wrote:
SLOT wrote:But the times and the gamers have changed and that fact has to be taken into account.

So forsaken the existing fanbase in an effort to try and please a new demographic, which might actually also like the fact that the game doesn't play itself?

Seems like a solid business plan. Whatever could go wrong?

Rollcage Stage 2.

Been there done that.
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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:16 pm

Plus it's been proven through both the press, the existing community and the developers themselves that the original is better than the sequel due to how toned-down the handling was in Stage II.

And judging by the responses on Greenlight and on PCGamer, most people are more privy towards the original -- so yeah, the cars shouldn't be driving themselves. There needs to be some skill involved.


(( I'm not picking on anybody who likes Stage II because it's still a pretty good game. It's just, well, the facts speak for themselves. ))
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Re: Car physics

Postby Tazeram » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:12 pm

SLOT wrote:the times and the gamers have changed and that fact has to be taken into account.


I think most of us lean towards keeping nostalgic Rollcage 1 elements in tact, rather than tarnishing it. I don't want the Vehicle handling / Physics to be that different.

KazzyMac wrote:most people are more privy towards the original


I don't doubt this, due to sales numbers and forum comments, but... we could have a poll! :P

SLOT wrote:Just look at this part here https://youtu.be/PWGawtEFL8w?t=34


That is a hilarious final stretch!

The guy at the front must have been like "Yess, yess, i've won this" and then a flying spec passes him by and lands past the finishing line! :lol:

The great thing about Grip and modern technology, is that the races can be very open and long, and have longer rendering distances. That way, if crazy jumps like that do happen, you have an amazing view! :D Seriously though, you'd also have the space to be able to do that tactfully without invading on World Borders as much! :P
Last edited by Tazeram on Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Car physics

Postby RollingGuyMaster » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:32 pm

All this seems like you guys want it to handle like the first, but will it translate well with a modern physics engine?

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Re: Car physics

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:51 pm

Broscar wrote:
SLOT wrote:But the times and the gamers have changed and that fact has to be taken into account.

So forsaken the existing fanbase in an effort to try and please a new demographic, which might actually also like the fact that the game doesn't play itself?

Seems like a solid business plan. Whatever could go wrong?


Ha, chill out Broscar, SLOT's just creating discussion.

I happen to agree with him, in that for the general population, Rollcage was a nightmare at first, but then most people got at least decent at it, and then there's the alpha omega's such as the yourself and a bunch of the other guys on here who are just gods at the game (far better than me)

BUT, we don't want Grip to be easy.. and it's not. You're on the verge of losing control most of the time, so when you nail that slick turn, it feels good. Rob was just talking about this earlier today.
I was saying to potty on Steam that we also want some kind of hardcore mode as well.

Also, that jump in the rollcage video above is a b*tch, I agree. You could be having a perfect run and then the arc in the takeoff of the road sends you twirling in the wrong direction.
It's the track design's fault, it's stupid. That's like a setup for failure that jump. If a guy ready to jump a canyon on a BMX saw that as his take-off he'd pack his bags and leave.

The jumps in the Grip track all have pretty gradual takeoffs because I don't think pulling of sweet jumps should be a problem, it should be fun. It's the run up to the jump and then the landing that's the issue, and how to recover from it.
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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:23 am

Chris_CE wrote:I was saying to potty on Steam that we also want some kind of hardcore mode as well.

That would be nice

I think that everyone should be able to complete at least the first difficulty of the campaign without struggling much. Some people here are just to race, enjoy the graphics, and destroy stuff ; not everyone has the endurance and/or motivation to learn to play a hard game (that's lame, I know.. But that's just how people are nowadays. And GRIP should be adapted to almost everyone, not just the few old Rollcage 1 fans). If GRIP's physics are as hard as Rollcage, it won't really encourage people to play it.

Still, if GRIP is too easy, well it will know the same fate as Rollcage Stage 2 ; a game very easy without much challenge (but maybe Scramble mode, and the Genesis car).

I think it would be nice to have this "hardcore mode" activated only for the higher difficulties. Normal mode would be the "non hardcore" mode, while Hard and Expert would have the "hardcore mode" enabled.

This way, people would see Normal mode as a way to discover the basic mechanics without worrying too much on the details of driving ; and then they will have to git gud to handle the other difficulties. But as it will be only for hard and expert mode, it should not be that frustrating (and the campaign on normal should have given enough motivation to go further).

Of course, if the devs go that way, it should be explicitly stated in the game that the car's handling is harder in hardcore mode (hard + expert).
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Re: Car physics

Postby Moo » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:41 am

Honestly, I would rather add an optional Pilot Assist for the easier difficulties instead of simplifying the physics. They shouldn't be usable in hard and expert, tho.
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Re: Car physics

Postby RollingGuyMaster » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:56 pm

The difficulty sliders will cater to both ends of the spectrum and create a huge skillgap. Random though: imagine this game on a wheel lol. Good lord that'll be fun!

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Re: Car physics

Postby Tazeram » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:02 pm

The main thing difficulty settings should impact, is the AI and how well they drive. Are they fast? How many mistakes do they make? How well are they are aiming and handling weapons?

Difficulty settings shouldn't impact how your own car personally handles, IMO.

the great thing about modern technology is that the AI can be far smarter than in the past. That way, difficulty can be set for how smart they perform in a race.

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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:12 pm

Tazeram wrote:The main thing difficulty settings should impact, is the AI and how well they drive. Are they fast? How many mistakes do they make? How well are they are aiming and handling weapons?

Difficulty settings shouldn't impact how your own car personally handles, IMO.

the great thing about modern technology is that the AI can be far smarter than in the past. That way, difficulty can be set for how smart they perform in a race.

The problem is that if you take a beginner, and ask him to race - even alone - on Skid Pan, I don't think he will enjoy that really much
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