Car physics

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ApexAzimuth
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Re: Car physics

Postby ApexAzimuth » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:11 pm

First post here! Just recently discovered GRIP via Formula Fusion discussion. Thought I'd weigh in.

I'm in agreement about not simplifying the physics too much for the sake of accessibility. There's too much to risk in juicy quality and long term play-ability by doing that. Gran Turismo is a good example of a fairly hardcore simulator that also had a massive audience, so simplifying isn't the only answer.

Driving assistants are the way to go for accessibility.
-Traction Control (Dampens braking and throttle if it detects slip)
-Computer Controlled air stability (Automatically adjusts throttle in the air, using torque to help the car align with the surface on landing)
-Automatic Reorientation (Exactly the same functionality as the one in Rollcage

The way to work these into the gameplay progression is to factor driving assists into the final score of a race. Race Driver: GRID did this well. So using driving assistants will take away from your final score, but they may be the only way for you to win a race until you get better at driving.
On the harder levels of the career mode or difficulty settings, driving assists will simply not be allowed. Whether none at all, or only some.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Jello_Snake » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:13 pm

I like my racing games to be tough, but I also like them to allow for crazy stunts and shenanigans without punishing the player. RC1's physics discourage risk taking. Mainly just when it comes to how hard the car bounces and jerks when you land a jump. You loose time because of it, so it's better to loop around the side of a wall and back to the ground then to shoot out of a tunnel from the ceiling. But shooting out of a tunnel from the ceiling is just straight up cooler!

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Re: Car physics

Postby landvaarder » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:21 am

Jello_Snake wrote:I like my racing games to be tough, but I also like them to allow for crazy stunts and shenanigans without punishing the player. RC1's physics discourage risk taking. Mainly just when it comes to how hard the car bounces and jerks when you land a jump. You loose time because of it, so it's better to loop around the side of a wall and back to the ground then to shoot out of a tunnel from the ceiling. But shooting out of a tunnel from the ceiling is just straight up cooler!

I don't know how much you played RC1, but in the weekly games, a lot of people do risky things, eighter for lolz, or to shave some time of their lap to stay ahead.
The bounce is just something you need to master.
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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:07 am

Jello_Snake wrote:I like my racing games to be tough, but I also like them to allow for crazy stunts and shenanigans without punishing the player. RC1's physics discourage risk taking. Mainly just when it comes to how hard the car bounces and jerks when you land a jump. You loose time because of it, so it's better to loop around the side of a wall and back to the ground then to shoot out of a tunnel from the ceiling. But shooting out of a tunnel from the ceiling is just straight up cooler!

Or you can use the risks at your advantage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1InBBt3a3T0

But yeah, I do agree with the fact that it's not really worth jumping off the ceiling.

By the way, every car has a good and wrong side. Depending on which side your car is, it will either have a good recovery or a quite bad one. That's some hidden mechanism that Ria pointed out - and I didn't know about it before reading it.
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Re: Car physics

Postby Selrisitai » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:58 pm

Tazeram wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:The problem is that if you take a beginner, and ask him to race - even alone - on Skid Pan, I don't think he will enjoy that really much


How did you think people coped with the original game, despite it's difficulty to control the car?

I would rather take the time to learn the game mechanics and have it challenge me, than to start out so watered down and easy. For example, i hated that in Stage 2 you had to slowly "unlock" the weapons you could use. Even worse was that it was based on car model, limiting your chocies later on in the game.

Even as a child, when i first played the game, i obviously enjoyed getting stuck in the game and the difficulty of car handling. It certainly made a lingering impression on me, and all of us, to be here to this day!


For me, it's a matter of how accurate the cars drive. Did you hit that wall because the game's controls suck, or don't make sense, or because you made a mistake?
Burnout: Takedown was, in my opinion, PERFECT in regard to how well the cars handled in relation to the track. If you knew how to drift, you could take any curve.
That's how this game should be. It should give you the tools to take any section at full speed.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Tazeram » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:26 am

I do admit that it's annoying hitting a tiny rock or slight indent on the track and it sending you spinning around multiple times or even flying. I'm actually optimistic about Grips car handling mechanics now. It seems slightly more realistic and heavy feeling, but the speed is not lost, and the power from weapons is not lost.

This means you have more grip (hehe), but it also means there is still a lot of speed, punch in weapons and you need to focus. I love how grips prototype track seems far more open, and there seems to be far more tricky paths rather than set out roads in many tracks of Rollcage 1 and 2. This will make driving around the track harder and more skill needs to be required to have fast laps, but retaining more down-to-earth physics simultaneously so that you don't suddenly become last due to a ridiculously spinning frenzy.

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Re: Car physics

Postby mrjimp » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:35 am

I love this thread!

Awesome discussions here.

I like the idea of air control, but only a tiny amount.
I like it if it has some realistic working mechanics, such as torque control from breaking, or accelerating the wheels, or if you have modified you car with fins and/or flaps. (Fins and flaps ofcourse, should be easily breakable so its nothing you can rely on after a few rocket impacts, or a few crashes)

Aircontrol i think should not be able to avert a disastrous take off, BUT could be used to steer your landing _a bit_ and maybe to keep the car level if the take of was nice and steady.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:07 am

Unreal.2K7 wrote:Yeah, but it's not physically possible to have a car with a certain weight, a certain handling and certain features that drives at such speeds. For that to be possible you have to tweak and bend the physics engine and the item's physical properties to try and approximate a certain behavior. This is why any suggestion dealing with altering gravity and/or adding forces results in headaches for the devs, because they have to take this into account and sort of come up with a tailored solution for every situation that "feels right".

Yeah this is pretty much it. Rob is planning on ripping open the engine pretty soon though, to really get a hold on the physics.

ApexAzimuth wrote:The way to work these into the gameplay progression is to factor driving assists into the final score of a race. Race Driver: GRID did this well. So using driving assistants will take away from your final score, but they may be the only way for you to win a race until you get better at driving.
On the harder levels of the career mode or difficulty settings, driving assists will simply not be allowed. Whether none at all, or only some.

I've seen a few games do this. Pretty good system, really. We'll just have to think about what assists we'd like to have as options, and how they would tie into multiplayer (disable/enable them server-side)
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Re: Car physics

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:12 am

Tazeram wrote:This means you have more grip (hehe), but it also means there is still a lot of speed, punch in weapons and you need to focus. I love how grips prototype track seems far more open, and there seems to be far more tricky paths rather than set out roads in many tracks of Rollcage 1 and 2. This will make driving around the track harder and more skill needs to be required to have fast laps, but retaining more down-to-earth physics simultaneously so that you don't suddenly become last due to a ridiculously spinning frenzy.

We're trying to hit a balance between having paths that guide you (tunnels, shaped canyons, curved walls) and open areas that leave the navigation strictly to the player's skill. I'd imagine we'd have at least one track that is almost on rails, letting you go insanely fast and not have to worry about skill to much - just obliterating your opponents at high speed

mrjimp wrote:I like the idea of air control, but only a tiny amount.
I like it if it has some realistic working mechanics, such as torque control from breaking, or accelerating the wheels, or if you have modified you car with fins and/or flaps. (Fins and flaps ofcourse, should be easily breakable so its nothing you can rely on after a few rocket impacts, or a few crashes)

Thrusters that control the roll of your car would be pretty awesome
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Re: Car physics

Postby TheOnLY » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:27 pm

I think Trackmania does a great job as far as Aircontrol goes, as existing angular momentum can be cancelled out by players actions (breaking or steering midair), slowing them down though. Additionally no new angular momentum can be added in the air. So once your car was facing the worng direction you would have to wait for the car to rotate far enough to face the right direction again. This mechanic would still punish bad jumps but eneable players to save at least some of their speed, when done right.

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Re: Car physics

Postby landvaarder » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:41 am

I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but I would like to be able to draft behind other cars.
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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:34 am

landvaarder wrote:I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but I would like to be able to draft behind other cars.

I have found a better explanation than the one you gave me on Mumble :P
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To simulate that, you don't necessarily need to simulate the whole air flow thing.
You would just need to add an air friction force to every car.
Then, the closer to an opponent car you are, the less important that friction force will be.

I think that would be an interesting mechanism to add in the game.
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Re: Car physics

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:21 am

Chris_CE wrote:Rob is planning on ripping open the engine pretty soon though, to really get a hold on the physics.

Oh my god. The guy is either having a blast working on it, or going crazy, or probably having a blast while going crazy trying to find a way to do something that cannot be done.

Rob, if you're reading this, know that we're all cheering for you back here. Don't let the physics tell you how things work! And besides: you guys already did it once and it was amazing, you can do it again!

Oh and you guys must not forget to record yourself (maybe a daily one-minute-or-less-short videolog?) about you swearing your way through the development. I would pay so much to see that kind of backstage! Then throw the videos at us and we'll do the making-of movie out of it :D
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Re: Car physics

Postby Yrch » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:39 am

landvaarder wrote:I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but I would like to be able to draft behind other cars.


important thing is, how often would this come into play?
most of the time you will line up behind someone either to drive over a boostpad or to shoot something add him (rockets, machine gun, railgun) instantly killing your option and need to draft.
And then with mines and other short range defensive weapons added, is it really worth the risk?
i mean adding another layer of risk/reward is alsways fun, but it would be pointless to implement if the games meta would end up that drafting isnt worth it at all.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Mik1 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:00 am

Yrch wrote:i mean adding another layer of risk/reward is alsways fun, but it would be pointless to implement if the games meta would end up that drafting isnt worth it at all.


I think if it gave a change for a small advantage would be good, if its too effective it would become the main game mechanism. If done right it could give you the option to go for the risk if you are getting desperate

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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:07 pm

Unreal.2K7 wrote:
Chris_CE wrote:Rob is planning on ripping open the engine pretty soon though, to really get a hold on the physics.

Oh my god. The guy is either having a blast working on it, or going crazy, or probably having a blast while going crazy trying to find a way to do something that cannot be done.

Rob, if you're reading this, know that we're all cheering for you back here. Don't let the physics tell you how things work! And besides: you guys already did it once and it was amazing, you can do it again!

Oh and you guys must not forget to record yourself (maybe a daily one-minute-or-less-short videolog?) about you swearing your way through the development. I would pay so much to see that kind of backstage! Then throw the videos at us and we'll do the making-of movie out of it :D


This.

I would pay to watch that.
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Re: Car physics

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:17 pm

Definitely need a parental advisory warning if we're going to share dev videos. My roots are in roofing and renovations, so I've perfected my crass tongue
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Re: Car physics

Postby codemonkey » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:11 am

There could be a real simple solution to this problem - two levels of control. For beginners, getting a feel for the game, we should implement a driving model with driving aids to help the player control the vehicle. For those that desire more challenge, switch the aids off, and even have a manual gearbox so that you really feel like you're driving the car, and not the management computers.

After you reach the end of the first league in a campaign, we could give the player the choice of taking away the stablisers right there.

Network games could enforce a driving model across all machines to ensure fair play.
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Re: Car physics

Postby landvaarder » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:45 am

codemonkey wrote:After you reach the end of the first league in a campaign, we could give the player the choice of taking away the stablisers right there.

I agree with everything you wrote but that...
You mean well, but this seems like shoving the assists through your trouth and saying you can free yourself after you are forced to use them (this can get really anoying)
Just set the option at the beginning of the first boot or jam them in to the options
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Re: Car physics

Postby codemonkey » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:58 am

landvaarder wrote:I agree with everything you wrote but that...
You mean well, but this seems like shoving the assists through your trouth and saying you can free yourself after you are forced to use them (this can get really anoying)
Just set the option at the beginning of the first boot or jam them in to the options


Certainly, I thought that was tacit to be honest ;-)
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