Car physics

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gbaranek
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Re: Car physics

Postby gbaranek » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:02 am

I agree with the most of you and I hope that steering will be more like R1, not like in RS2. Grip in this game should be something most valuable for the player, something that he needs to fight for and learn to master the car. It shouldn't be just given. I would accept high adhesion to the track only as a power up limited by time.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Tazeram » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:34 am

I'm actually growing to the idea of having higher grip than Rollcage.

As long as the cars are fast (possibly faster than Rollcage in general), and as long as the tracks are exciting and have to keep you on your toes, then i am actually glad a tiny rock or indent in the road won't randomly send me skidding in circles. :P

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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:58 pm

Tazeram wrote:I'm actually growing to the idea of having higher grip than Rollcage.

As long as the cars are fast (possibly faster than Rollcage in general), and as long as the tracks are exciting and have to keep you on your toes, then i am actually glad a tiny rock or indent in the road won't randomly send me skidding in circles. :P

There is grip and grip :P

What you're talking about is more stability on the road. A small rock, and it makes you spin right round (baby right round).

I see grip as being more how your car handles when you make a big turn. With a slow grip, you end up drifting very fast, and have to be careful when taking big turns. While with a high grip, it is much easier to take the turns.

But the two notions are different. You could have a very high grip car, who still ends up spinning when it encounters a small rock.
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Re: Car physics

Postby Tazeram » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:51 am

potterman28wxcv wrote:There is grip and grip :P.


Yeah, true. I was indeed referring to the former.

Chris already mentioned:

Chris_CE wrote:The car has more weight this time around, and feels like a tank of a machine. But it goes incredibly fast and requires care not to spin out on a decent turn.
It also doesn't do a triple axel when it hits something (RC), but rather smashes to a halt with debris and smoke.



Chris_CE wrote:The issues with RC1's physics/handling are as follows:

-touch anything with your tire and you spin out
-enter the air, and feel like a toy, spinning around

And that's about it. We don't have those issues in Grip


I was following up on that saying i was actually liking the way they have made changes to the physics of the vehicles. It sounds good that i won't be flying around due to hitting a tiny object or lamp post.

Good grip in the latter sense is also ideal. Then you have good movability to take alternate paths and feel willing to go on walls and ceilings etc...

I am hoping the AI difficulty, Speed and power of the weapons make up for the difficulty which may be lost with having cars with high grip in both senses.

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Re: Car physics

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:42 pm

Do you guys think a car with asymmetric top and bottom side should have different handling depending on what side it drives on? I mean, would it be good to have them behave differently because of different aerodynamics? Maybe it could be a special feature of asymmetric cars?

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Re: Car physics

Postby landvaarder » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:38 pm

that would be too difficult in my oppinion
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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:18 pm

Whiplash wrote:Do you guys think a car with asymmetric top and bottom side should have different handling depending on what side it drives on? I mean, would it be good to have them behave differently because of different aerodynamics? Maybe it could be a special feature of asymmetric cars?

Way too complicated. The best games are those who are very simple, and yet very hard to master.
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Re: Car physics

Postby Ria » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:08 am

SLOT wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:You know what you do on that bit? If you think the car's going to land and flip over, let go of the throttle. 9/10 the car will land and pull a little wheelie but then come back down facing the right way.


50/50 with what I tried. I even thought that there is some sophisticated throttle technique during jumps to stay upright.

The trick to stay upright is to drive the right side up. Find out what side is right, and use the hairpin turn before the big jump to flip your car. Just drive a bit up the wall and get yourself the momentum for a flip, but not too much.
Whiplash wrote:Do you guys think a car with asymmetric top and bottom side should have different handling depending on what side it drives on? I mean, would it be good to have them behave differently because of different aerodynamics? Maybe it could be a special feature of asymmetric cars?
potterman28wxcv wrote:Way too complicated. The best games are those who are very simple, and yet very hard to master.

Actually, what Whiplash is describing is sort of how Rollcage 1 works, to a degree. There is a significant difference in car handling depending on which side you drive on, and this is particularly noticeable on the Daytona big jump. I'm driving exclusively Ria, although I've tested it on Jet as well, and I've found that driving on the right side considerably increases the likelihood of a smooth landing after the big jump. I don't know if this was deliberately implemented by the designers, but the difference is highly siginificant.
While we're waiting for Grip: Some Rollcage Hijinks

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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:12 am

Ria wrote:
Whiplash wrote:Do you guys think a car with asymmetric top and bottom side should have different handling depending on what side it drives on? I mean, would it be good to have them behave differently because of different aerodynamics? Maybe it could be a special feature of asymmetric cars?
potterman28wxcv wrote:Way too complicated. The best games are those who are very simple, and yet very hard to master.

Actually, what Whiplash is describing is sort of how Rollcage 1 works, to a degree. There is a significant difference in car handling depending on which side you drive on, and this is particularly noticeable on the Daytona big jump. I'm driving exclusively Ria, although I've tested it on Jet as well, and I've found that driving on the right side considerably increases the likelihood of a smooth landing after the big jump. I don't know if this was deliberately implemented by the designers, but the difference is highly siginificant.

Interesting, I have never noticed it. I'll give it a try
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Re: Car physics

Postby Ria » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:16 am

For Ria, the "right" side is the good-looking side up, one with the triangular-ish cockpit and the exhaust pipes, whereas the "wrong" side up is the sort of flat, boring side.
While we're waiting for Grip: Some Rollcage Hijinks

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Re: Car physics

Postby Broscar » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:17 am

I'm unable to reproduce what Ria is describing. The cars handle the same no matter which side they're driven on over on my end.

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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:44 am

The cars' trajectory on Daytona depend on the speed of the approach, how straight you are and whether you're turning. I've found that turning whilst coming up on that jump makes the car tip down more.

It doesn't matter what side up the car is when it approaches, the game doesn't have complicated enough physics to simulate drag based on the cars' shapes (it doesn't even have an actual physics engine, guys). It's just a placebo effect. :p
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Re: Car physics

Postby Ria » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:13 am

Really? I've been dealing with this for years. I'll have to do a systematic research. You have not heard the last from me on this.

Also, there has to be something going on with the physics simulation. At times, a seemingly perfect landing will instead yield a mad multiaxial spin. There are quite a few quirks with the Rollcage physics, I don't think they're entirely understood.
While we're waiting for Grip: Some Rollcage Hijinks

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Re: Car physics

Postby Ria » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:58 am

I stand by my word, ladies and sirs. I did a test today, 20 laps on the "wrong" side and 20 laps on the "right" side, observing the Daytona big jump landing results.

On the "wrong" side, 6 out of 20 landings resulted in backflips.
On the "right" side, 0 out of 20 landings resulted in backflips.

I drove Ria on turbo challenge, using no power-ups, driving the high road above the beach, using all three sets of booster strips from the hairpin turn. A few wobbly takeoffs were observed, but only when driving on the "wrong" side.

I will repeat this experiment with even more laps and record it in two weeks, when I'm back to high-speed internet.
While we're waiting for Grip: Some Rollcage Hijinks

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Re: Car physics

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:59 am

Ria wrote:I stand by my word, ladies and sirs. I did a test today, 20 laps on the "wrong" side and 20 laps on the "right" side, observing the Daytona big jump landing results.

On the "wrong" side, 6 out of 20 landings resulted in backflips.
On the "right" side, 0 out of 20 landings resulted in backflips.

I drove Ria on turbo challenge, using no power-ups, driving the high road above the beach, using all three sets of booster strips from the hairpin turn. A few wobbly takeoffs were observed, but only when driving on the "wrong" side.

I will repeat this experiment with even more laps and record it in two weeks, when I'm back to high-speed internet.

I can confirm this as well. Even though I was sceptical.

I have tried on Daytona, repeating the same pattern with different positions (right or wrong side). I don't take any turns, I just go straight, starting from different points.

No matter whether I use Ria, Lenny, Neo mode or not, the result is always the same : one side lands better than the other. And I have done maybe 50 tries or so.. Only 1 or 2 of them landed badly for the right side - but that was because I crashed into a building

What is strange though is that the game always spawns you on the "wrong" side. And it's not even logical with the cars : for Ria, the good side is the one with cockpit ; for Lenny, the good side is the one without cockpit. Did they invert the cars or something in the files ? lol
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Re: Car physics

Postby Ria » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:41 am

Here's my theory: Maybe the car's simulated center of mass is slightly off? Could there be something about the basics of how the Rollcage cars are modeled that prevented the programmers/designers from placing the center of mass exactly halfway up the car's total height?
While we're waiting for Grip: Some Rollcage Hijinks

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Re: Car physics

Postby KazzyMac » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:25 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:What is strange though is that the game always spawns you on the "wrong" side. And it's not even logical with the cars : for Ria, the good side is the one with cockpit ; for Lenny, the good side is the one without cockpit. Did they invert the cars or something in the files ? lol

For the P3 build they did flip the car models, yes. (best example is Yuri - he spawns with the red side up on the PSX/vanilla builds but with the gray side up on the P3/Redux build)

This is interesting though, I'll have to look into it myself but I'm still very sceptical.

By the way - remember the following:

1) The game doesn't have a physics engine. :P
2) The game also runs at 30fps, and as Rob has said several times on the Steam group, the cars are pretty much at the limit of collision detection/physics calculations as a result of that. So the cars occasionally clipping/flipping randomly is a result of the cars getting a bit beyond the 'safe' boundaries of the game's simulation speed. :P

Interesting dilemma though, perhaps the center of mass of the cars is off (this might have something to do with their automatic midair righting system...)
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Re: Car physics

Postby Stage III » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:13 am

As for physics, I thing they should be more closely to RC1. Something about RC2 physics felt off for me. In RC1 you had to master how your favorite driver handled. Also the way the cars landled on the ground felt much better in RC1 as well (challenging but stil fun). In all RC2 was too forgiving in several areas.
Rollcage 1 type physics all the way!

PS I found RC1 chase cam more engaging than RC2. It felt as that was part of the game that gave it more character or "soul"

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Re: Car physics

Postby Moo » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:42 pm

Doesn't Unreal Engine already have a pre-made physics engine in it?
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Re: Car physics

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:25 am

Yeah, but it's not physically possible to have a car with a certain weight, a certain handling and certain features that drives at such speeds. For that to be possible you have to tweak and bend the physics engine and the item's physical properties to try and approximate a certain behavior. This is why any suggestion dealing with altering gravity and/or adding forces results in headaches for the devs, because they have to take this into account and sort of come up with a tailored solution for every situation that "feels right".
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