Air control with cars?

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Tiakh
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Air control with cars?

Postby Tiakh » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:38 pm

First of all its very possible to control a car in the air. Here is an RC-Car (remote controlled not rollcage :D) video, which pefectly shows it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpbDqQq2ino&t=1m2s

I would also like to have a control like this in the game, first of all its realistic (see the vid if you dont think so ;) ) and gives you some more option, but watching your car flying through the air. However it should be just some very small control. the cars should not be able to flip in the air how they like. it should only be for controling the landing a bit better and preventing the worst crashes.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby landvaarder » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:59 pm

Try that in a real car :D

But as a rollcage 1 veteran, I dislike air control as i feel that it makes the game too easy and lose the sence of "edge of control"
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby WROB3L » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Tiakh wrote:First of all its very possible to control a car in the air. Here is an RC-Car (remote controlled not rollcage :D)


OK so. How much exactly RC-Car weigh? And How much does vehicle bigger than tank weighs? SOOO yeah thats impossible. BUTT that could be done if this vehicle would have a reaction wheel inside (gyroscope) BUTT mentioned Gyroscope would probably be Bigger then the rest of the car xD In RC-Cars wheels work as gyroscopes because its really light. Simple physics bruh.
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Tazeram » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:19 am

Yeah, i do not like the ideal of any major air control. If you lift of a ramp at an awkward angle, and are destined to hit the road and tumble around, that's your own fault. :lol:
Last edited by Tazeram on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:40 am

Yeah, air control will make the game like stage 2, where no matter how you take the jump, you end up correctly.
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Tiakh » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:32 am

Because im studying engineering science, i need to contradict your opinions on physik. I didnt learn yet much about aerodynamics, so i cant tell what and how much influence they would have. But i can tell that the rotation of the weels in the air will follow in an opposit rotation of the whole vehicle. Because as Newton stated every force has its counter force. And yes rotation is also some kind of force. And the rotation of the weels need to be compensated by rotating the whole car. (This is the easiest explanation, i could get in to more detail with formulas, but it would be hard for me to explain them without the german vocabulary)

landvaarder wrote:Try that in a real car :D
But as a rollcage 1 veteran, I dislike air control as i feel that it makes the game too easy and lose the sence of "edge of control"

real cars have small weels and dont fly that good in the air, so you dont see the effect very good. But the grip cars have big weels, are pretty fast (fast rotation of the weels) and can fly pretty good, thats why it would theoretically work. (more physiks later)
If you dont like the real physik, i can understand it, because its still an acade racer and it should be fun and not too complicated.

WROB3L wrote:
Tiakh wrote:First of all its very possible to control a car in the air. Here is an RC-Car (remote controlled not rollcage :D)

OK so. How much exactly RC-Car weigh? And How much does vehicle bigger than tank weighs? SOOO yeah thats impossible. BUTT that could be done if this vehicle would have a reaction wheel inside (gyroscope) BUTT mentioned Gyroscope would probably be Bigger then the rest of the car xD In RC-Cars wheels work as gyroscopes because its really light. Simple physics bruh.

RC car was just an example which lets you clearly see the effect, ofcourse its has less influence on bigger cars, but it still there.

Furthermore, the mass is not the most important value that has influence on the equation of momentum. (rotation speed is also important which is also pretty high concerning how fast you are in the game)
The Moment of inertia is more effected by the size then the mass it has. (This tensor is important to calculate the rotation of an object)
Inertia around the z achse: I index zz = integral of (x² + y²) dm (Z-Achse is the rotation achse of the weel when you drive in the example)
With constant mass spreading and the assumption the weels are cylinder. (for simplicite sake)
I index zz = 1/2 m * R²
as you see the radius has a quadratic influence on the z component of the tensor, but the mass only a linear one. And its not that the weels wouldnt have any weight at all.
(All equations are from my mechanic script)

You know how a gyroscope works? No? because the weels are four big gyroscope (if you want to call it like this, because it works exactly the same) but only for one rotation achse. So you actually admited that im right. And yes the weels are bigger than the car so you see what i mean?

Sorry if im harsh, but i cant see someone spreading wrong informations.

Other Example from bigger things then rc cars:
Physik dont always work as you expect from every day life. They are sometimes more complicated as you think. Another good example of the same phenomenon is the aircraft itself. Why does the helicopter need the second smaller rotor on the back: Yes to compensate the rotation from the main rotor - same effect.
And some unnoticed phenomenon from airplanes: Actually an airplane has a different way to take turns depanding whether it is a left or a right turn. Today the airplane bordcomputer will make the job to compansate this (so you wont notice as easily) , but its still there. This time the cause is the very fast rotation of the yet engines. Rotation can cause many effects most people dont know about.

Unreal.2K7 wrote:Yeah, air control will make the game like stage 2, where no matter how you take the jump, you end up correctly.

Physiks wise rc2 is completely wrong of how your car turns in air.
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Here you can see the rotation achses well.

In RC2 you could mainly control the roation "Yaw"
What i mean is a rotation of the "pitch" or even the "roll" achse (which is also possible physiks wise through steering the weels, but the influence would be much smaller)
An rotation "Yaw" doesnt make much sense physics-wise (maybe with aerodynamics) and i wouldnt want it in the game, because as you said the jumps should not be too easy.

And with only the "pitch" rotation, you will still land bad if you headed a wrong direction before your jump.


So my proposal is a "pitch" rotation (and maybe a roll rotation) and not a "yaw" rotation, which is different to rc2.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby WROB3L » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:48 am

Tiakh wrote:
1. You know how a gyroscope works? No? because the weels are four big gyroscope (if you want to call it like this, because it works exactly the same) but only for one rotation achse. So you actually admited that im right. And yes the weels are bigger than the car so you see what i mean?

2. Sorry if im harsh, but i cant see someone spreading wrong informations.


1. I know how gyroscopes work :D

2. Not a problem bruh! :D
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Tiakh » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:00 am

WROB3L wrote:
Tiakh wrote:
1. You know how a gyroscope works? No? because the weels are four big gyroscope (if you want to call it like this, because it works exactly the same) but only for one rotation achse. So you actually admited that im right. And yes the weels are bigger than the car so you see what i mean?

2. Sorry if im harsh, but i cant see someone spreading wrong informations.


1. I know how gyroscopes work :D

2. Not a problem bruh! :D

2. Good, because most people on the internet are always offended when you contradict their statement, but sometimes you find some nice ones :D

So now i hope nobody says again it doesnt make sense (and even if it doesnt its a game) ;)

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Broscar » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:24 am

Holy science, Tiakh :p

OT: I care little for realism in my video games, but purely from a gameplay perspective, I say yes to (subtle/weak - a bit stronger than Rollcage 1's auto-righting mechanic) pitch rotation.
If you take a ramp badly, you'll crash into a wall anyway.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby yellowquiet » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:58 pm

Damn. Tiakh dropped some science on us. But he is right. Cars do have a degree of horizontal air control and its managed by the force in the tires of the cars. It can be managed by the throttle and braking. I would like to see some form of light vertical air control. RC1's auto correcting is almost luck based at times and I would like to be able to have vertical control in Grip. No horizontal control unless you are planning to have fins on the side of the cars that act like air brakes like in WipEout. Here's a little article on the topic of car jumping
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Stage III » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:40 am

No air control please! WTF!!!

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Jello_Snake » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:03 pm

I don't understand why people are against it. Don't make it crazy good or anything, but being able to control the pitch with the right joystick only adds to the complexity of the game!

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:37 pm

Jello_Snake wrote:I don't understand why people are against it. Don't make it crazy good or anything, but being able to control the pitch with the right joystick only adds to the complexity of the game!

Yup, it's true that imo being able to control the pitch adds a lot to the WipEout series for example.

But this is not WipEout :P This is GRIP, a game where cars are very heavy. Think of the weight of a tank.
You would have a very hard time air-controlling them !
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby landvaarder » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:11 am

I agree with potterman on this.

Call me biased cause I played (and liked) rollcage more than stage 2, but the hardcore, non forgiving gameplay was amazing, and the lack of usable air control adds to that.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:13 am

^ This.

Jello_Snake wrote:I don't understand why people are against it. Don't make it crazy good or anything, but being able to control the pitch with the right joystick only adds to the complexity of the game!


And Rollcage is complex enough as it is, having to fight a 300mph tank and figure out which way you're driving because the camera is goofy. :P Besides, I'm not sure how well modern Wipeout controls map on a keyboard. Not everyone will be using a PS4/XBox pad unfortunately. And silly crashes are part of Rollcage's history and whatnot. ;)


Not saying your opinion is bad, but just pointing out that Grip doesn't need it.
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Chris_CE » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:59 pm

I think having in flight tilt controls is a bit goofy for our tastes - unless of course there were visible thrusters doing the work... maybe just on one type of vehicle, giving it an advantage (to counteract one of it's disadvantages)
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Jello_Snake » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:37 am

KazzyMac wrote:^ This.

And Rollcage is complex enough as it is, having to fight a 300mph tank and figure out which way you're driving because the camera is goofy. :P Besides, I'm not sure how well modern Wipeout controls map on a keyboard. Not everyone will be using a PS4/XBox pad unfortunately. And silly crashes are part of Rollcage's history and whatnot. ;)


Sorry but I'm just going to go out and say that's not a valid argument. Playing racing games with a keyboard is a terrible idea, and they should never be based around that, especially when your argument is essentially that the game should be watered down. That's not different from saying that something should be removed or not included in an RTS like starcraft because it would be too hard on a gamepad. Some games are made for gamepads, some for keyboard, some for racing wheels, some for flight sticks, and some for plastic guitars. There are valid arguments for and against air control. Using a keyboard is not one of them.

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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby KazzyMac » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:43 am

Jello_Snake wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:^ This.

And Rollcage is complex enough as it is, having to fight a 300mph tank and figure out which way you're driving because the camera is goofy. :P Besides, I'm not sure how well modern Wipeout controls map on a keyboard. Not everyone will be using a PS4/XBox pad unfortunately. And silly crashes are part of Rollcage's history and whatnot. ;)


Sorry but I'm just going to go out and say that's not a valid argument. Playing racing games with a keyboard is a terrible idea, and they should never be based around that, especially when your argument is essentially that the game should be watered down. That's not different from saying that something should be removed or not included in an RTS like starcraft because it would be too hard on a gamepad. Some games are made for gamepads, some for keyboard, some for racing wheels, some for flight sticks, and some for plastic guitars. There are valid arguments for and against air control. Using a keyboard is not one of them.


You'd be surprised how many people play arcade racing games on PC using a keyboard. Of course, I couldn't possibly dream of it - I can't play a racing game without a pad, and a sim-based racing game without a wheel. But there are people who play Rollcage and the original Wipeout games on keyboard.

So, yes, it is in fact a very valid argument. Please don't correct me for giving my opinion, thank you, especially after I respected yours.
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:09 am

KazzyMac wrote:
Jello_Snake wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:^ This.

And Rollcage is complex enough as it is, having to fight a 300mph tank and figure out which way you're driving because the camera is goofy. :P Besides, I'm not sure how well modern Wipeout controls map on a keyboard. Not everyone will be using a PS4/XBox pad unfortunately. And silly crashes are part of Rollcage's history and whatnot. ;)


Sorry but I'm just going to go out and say that's not a valid argument. Playing racing games with a keyboard is a terrible idea, and they should never be based around that, especially when your argument is essentially that the game should be watered down. That's not different from saying that something should be removed or not included in an RTS like starcraft because it would be too hard on a gamepad. Some games are made for gamepads, some for keyboard, some for racing wheels, some for flight sticks, and some for plastic guitars. There are valid arguments for and against air control. Using a keyboard is not one of them.


You'd be surprised how many people play arcade racing games on PC using a keyboard. Of course, I couldn't possibly dream of it - I can't play a racing game without a pad, and a sim-based racing game without a wheel. But there are people who play Rollcage and the original Wipeout games on keyboard.

So, yes, it is in fact a very valid argument. Please don't correct me for giving my opinion, thank you, especially after I respected yours.

+1

I'm a heavy keyboard user, and if there is one thing that I find really frustrating, it's when I find a PC game that needs to be played with a controller.
I mean, if that's the case, why did the devs develop it on PC anyway ? Every PC game should have the possibility to play on keyboard without much trouble, because that's a PC game.

Rocket League managed to do that pretty well. Of course I don't have as much precision with my keyboard than I would have with a controller, but still, I'm able to air control very well my car. If it wasn't possible to properly air control my car using the keyboard, I would have stopped playing Rocket League by now.

So, yes, please take the keyboard users into account. Maybe one day 99% of the PCs will have a controller, and when this day comes up, yeah you won't really care whether your game supports keyboard or not. But this day has not come yet. The only non-packed-by-default component that has reached this 99% level is the mouse. Almost every PC gamer has a mouse. But that's not yet the case for the pad.
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Re: Air control with cars?

Postby Tazeram » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:15 am

Can confirm. Do not have a USB controller!... :P

When i play Rollcage on the good old PS1 console, i obviously use the PS1 controller, but i've been too lazy in setting it up in recent times and just play the CD using an emulator on my computer. I use my keyboard only for that and still win the races in expert mode. I think AI skill needs to be raised. 8-)


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