Some weapons, especially mines are boring

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Only Mostly Here
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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby Only Mostly Here » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:09 pm

Agree that mines are boring, but wouldn't say they're always ineffective. Their impact is in more or less the right place for a weapon that is so easy to use IMO - generally won't do much to a car at full throttle, but if you hit one in a turn or certain other prime spots they can really mess you up. They can also sometimes cause situations where moving to avoid the mine can have a bigger negative impact than hitting it.

Anyway, wouldn't be too sad to see them gone altogether considering their usage is pretty one dimensional - put them in the obvious technical/tight spots and hope someone gets unlucky - but interested to see what the planned solution is.

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codemonkey
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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby codemonkey » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:31 am

Only Mostly Here wrote:Agree that mines are boring, but wouldn't say they're always ineffective. Their impact is in more or less the right place for a weapon that is so easy to use IMO - generally won't do much to a car at full throttle, but if you hit one in a turn or certain other prime spots they can really mess you up. They can also sometimes cause situations where moving to avoid the mine can have a bigger negative impact than hitting it.

Anyway, wouldn't be too sad to see them gone altogether considering their usage is pretty one dimensional - put them in the obvious technical/tight spots and hope someone gets unlucky - but interested to see what the planned solution is.

Look at the end-of-game stats my friend, they're ineffective.
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Queadah
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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby Queadah » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:50 am

codemonkey wrote:Look at the end-of-game stats my friend, they're ineffective.

Truth be told there is very little things to do to make them interesting (I'm also in the camp to keep them really).

Many suggestions already in the thread but:
  • instead of being "2d", like, they drop on the ground...
  • they could be "3d" by floating wherever someone dropped them (e.g. mid-air) !!
  • their area of influence could also be 3d, a whole sphere, so you'd have to jump high enough or be way below not to trigger it
And I could go on... :)

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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby Only Mostly Here » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:36 am

I still disagree that mines are weak. Not only are they a prime weapon for discarding (for the purpose of powerup cycling looking for OP pickups like boosts and shields) but a lot of their strength comes from their ability to discourage people from taking a particular route - causing time loss without actually dealing any damage. This means that they may have an extremely low 'hit rate' while still affecting the race. They're also very effective area denial. Mines on the approach to the shortcut on Yuri Industrial can decide races, and mines on boost pads can very effectively prevent a player from catching up.

In terms of making them more interesting, what if they mutually annihilated with Hydras? If a Hydra passes over a mine, the mine detonates and scatters the hydra projectiles. This means that mines can be used reactively to block hydras on the straights where they'd otherwise be difficult to avoid. Meanwhile, it also makes hydras more attractive to keep as an alternative minesweeping option to the Raptor. This interaction would probably have to bypass the arming time of mines, since that arming time would make reactive mine usage impractical. My thinking here is that both mines and hydras are jointly the 'number 1 disposable weapons' - they leave your inventory quickly and without negatively affecting you, which means most of the time they'll be instantly thrown away to cycle for different powerups. Giving them some interaction might make people consider holding onto them.

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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby playabot » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:33 pm

Only Mostly Here wrote:I still disagree that mines are weak. Not only are they a prime weapon for discarding (for the purpose of powerup cycling looking for OP pickups like boosts and shields) but a lot of their strength comes from their ability to discourage people from taking a particular route - causing time loss without actually dealing any damage. This means that they may have an extremely low 'hit rate' while still affecting the race. They're also very effective area denial. Mines on the approach to the shortcut on Yuri Industrial can decide races, and mines on boost pads can very effectively prevent a player from catching up.

In terms of making them more interesting, what if they mutually annihilated with Hydras? If a Hydra passes over a mine, the mine detonates and scatters the hydra projectiles. This means that mines can be used reactively to block hydras on the straights where they'd otherwise be difficult to avoid. Meanwhile, it also makes hydras more attractive to keep as an alternative minesweeping option to the Raptor. This interaction would probably have to bypass the arming time of mines, since that arming time would make reactive mine usage impractical. My thinking here is that both mines and hydras are jointly the 'number 1 disposable weapons' - they leave your inventory quickly and without negatively affecting you, which means most of the time they'll be instantly thrown away to cycle for different powerups. Giving them some interaction might make people consider holding onto them.


All very valid points - great articulation of the situation. +1

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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby Hanstra » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:30 pm

I completely agree with Mostly on this topic - mines are far from weak in the right hands. I actually think they're very strong right now. If you mindlessly plop them down in the middle of a field, of course nobody is going to hit them. But get a bit creative and slap them in a narrow passage or at the landing of a jump, and they're nearly guaranteed to screw someone over, especially if vehicle damage is enabled.

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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby KazzyMac » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:33 pm

My two cents:

Hydras do a metric ton of disturbance if you actually land one on someone, and right now they have the potential of doing a LOT of damage if multiple rockets hit irregardless of screwing someone over if just one of them tags them off the track, so I think their potential is balanced by how hard they are to land on people. Saying that you shouldn't be able to just reset out of the spinning effect though (this goes for most weapons, there should probably be a delay where you can't reset x seconds after being hit by something). Making them capable of clearing mines might be something to consider, or maybe upping the accuracy of the homing. (multiplayer latency is also a problem because I've noticed the hydra has to hit on the victim's end, not yours, for it to work. This goes for all weapons, though).


Mines are dangerous, but I feel they do need more utility because they're easy to dodge with how gimped they are with the cars' launch ability and at race speeds there's every chance that hitting a mine does nothing but scrub maybe 100km/h off of your speed. I agree that you shouldn't be able to put them anywhere and expect to get a hit, but that's the nature of multiplayer; people are smart-enough to find paths around them if they're placed in places that allow it, so their strength is in *forcing* them to do so in a way that substantially slows them down, or placing them in a position where hitting them is unavoidable.

Unfortunately as said, as of now it's easy to dodge most mines by just initiating a short (quarter-second preload) launch to hop over them, so it's clear that the mines' hit detection needs adjusting to make them more of a consistent threat. I shouldn't be able to dodge a mine by hopping over the ground it covers whilst my tires physically pass through the red trigger; I should need more of a jump to clear them.

Thoughts?


edit

If Rob has idea for buffing mines, let's let him do what he wants and see what happens. Historically though, area-denial weapons are often more effective than their 'hit rate' lets on, because their effectiveness is as much in being hit as being a deterrent (Mines and Bolts in Blur historically have low hit ratios because of this fact, that doesn't mean that they're bad.)

Still, let's wait and see. :P
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Re: Some weapons, especially mines are boring

Postby playabot » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:41 am

Would two mine variants make things interesting? I.e. one variant lies flat and has a wide area of effect so you need to launch over it (like a trip wire) and a second with a more narrow but tall vertical area of effect so it can’t be jumped.

May over complicate but thought I’d throw it out there...

This may give players more strategic options and encourage players to hold mines and wait for the best situation to drop that type.

Maybe trip wire could be it’s own weapon type and the current mine modified to give it more verticality.

Edit

Or it could be the same mine but with two functions. Second function initiated with a double tap, hold or as a mod.


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