Lets talk about the Leader Missile

From turbos to missiles, discuss Grip's pick-ups here
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Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby ApexAzimuth » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:30 pm

I think this is probably a very controversial weapon as it can be the outright decider of a race, so lets discuss it.
Since I have nothing else to go off of, I'm using Rollcage's mechanics as a discussion base.

Pros:
-Does well to keep the leader on their toes, never truly home-free.
-Maintains tighter race positions by keeping the leader position from gaining too much ground.
-Amusing to watch

Cons:
-A fairly skill-less fire-and-forget weapon.
-Often becomes the sole determinant of a race outcome. Can rob drivers of a deserved win.
-Not many options for counter-measures. (Your doom is clearly coming and there is nothing you can do to stop it)


I think the leader missile creates an interesting dynamic to race combat, but at the risk of removing some of the skill elements of the game.
If the leader missile is included, there should be options to counter it (More than Rollcage). Either by direct counter measures, indirect countermeasures (destroying the environment to block the missile), or evasive action, potentially at the cost of racing line and race time.

Discuss!

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby Muskylounger » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:57 pm

I agree it should be included but quite possible to counter.

It should fly over the whole pack then come in at the leader from in front so any forward firing weapons would detonate it early to reduce impact.

If youre empty (no weapons) you can drive through some destructible buildings for cover. Or swerve at the last second to reduce the impact.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby Yrch » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:59 am

the only thing about the leadermissle i dont like is that you can get it as a pick up even when you are first, potentially blocking all your weapon slots.
i mean there are more than enough ways in RC1 to get rid of em using the enviroment or even use them as an advantage, but overall i think if you are first -> no Assassin for you.

everything else is fine on how it works in RC1/RC2 and i dont think the core mechanic needs much change in grip.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby ApexAzimuth » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:09 am

Yrch wrote:the only thing about the leadermissle i dont like is that you can get it as a pick up even when you are first, potentially blocking all your weapon slots.
i mean there are more than enough ways in RC1 to get rid of em using the enviroment or even use them as an advantage, but overall i think if you are first -> no Assassin for you.

everything else is fine on how it works in RC1/RC2 and i dont think the core mechanic needs much change in grip.



The weapon slot blocking is another issue.

On one hand it reduces the effect of the leader hogging all the weapons, on the other hand it practically ensures that the leader has one or even two leader missiles, so the moment they're NOT in first, they have a distinct weapon advantage.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby Yrch » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:05 am

you could reduce the hogging by simply denien or reducing some weapons to the leader (just like mario kart does), something RC1 already did.
no more than 1 shield pickup in slots, cant pickup another shield when one is active, very very slim chance of boost/quaker/EMP.
this would alow the leader to (try) and defend against stuff based on skill without them being able to hog 2 shield or 2 boosts.

yeah i would hog 2 drills in RC1 to defend from the green-manace but its still skill based and in some situations you either couldnt block the missile cause of corners and stuff or you had to slow down to keep a good angle, reducing your lead and risking getting hit by other stuff.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby KazzyMac » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:19 am

I always liked the idea of getting leader missiles in 1st.

For one, in competitive games it's a disadvantage, because that's one (or often both) weaponslots gone when another actual leader missile is likely only seconds away from being fired, so you have no way to really protect yourself.

For another, it stops you getting shields, turbos or drillers, which aids in the others catching up or punishing.

For the last, it also forces you out of your comfort zone and a successful leader is one who can survive the pressure of two 'junk' weapons by getting rid of them or keeping 1st whilst being disadvantaged.



Being in first in this game is a very dangerous position, so the risk is worth the reward. :P I don't want that to be changed in Grip, especially not when there are other weapons that 1st can use for defense now (mines predominantly). There needs to be a weapon that makes you curse and put on a different strategy, makes you have to think about whether to dump that missile you got from the last weapon pickup in the hopes of getting a shield or a turbo from the next one or whether the risk of getting a 'damned leader missile' is too much given the situation/distance ahead you are.

:P My opinion though (coming from the guy who won the Rollcage multiplayer knockout tournament by figuring out how to deal with getting leader missiles in 1st and not panicking over them... lol.)


Muskylounger wrote:I agree it should be included but quite possible to counter.

It should fly over the whole pack then come in at the leader from in front so any forward firing weapons would detonate it early to reduce impact.

If youre empty (no weapons) you can drive through some destructible buildings for cover. Or swerve at the last second to reduce the impact.


Stingers are confirmed to counter Assassin missiles... 8-)
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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby Broscar » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:51 am

You can't have a thread about leader missiles without me participating in the discussion, mates.

Getting leader missiles whilst you're ahead of the pack ain't that much of an issue in Rollcage. You can hang on to them and punish anyone who dares overtake you, use them to rocket boost yourself or just get rid of 'em by shooting them at a wall.

Evading the missiles is quite difficult, though far from impossible. Destroying them is pretty easy, but that depends on the track and how lucky you are with which powerups are given to you.
I'd personally tone down the amount of leader missiles that get handed out to racers though. It's not uncommon for me to be targeted by three leader missiles at the same time and although the guys on Mumble think my cries are hilarious, it does genuinly make my heart ache. (Though this is compensated by the excitement I feel when I have to try and regain my position again)

As for it being an outright decider of a race, that's more of a Time Warp thing.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Broscar wrote:I'd personally tone down the amount of leader missiles that get handed out to racers though.

I read your message just for this :D

But having several leaders missiles is fun imo. When you do manage to evade them all, you have then a lot of satisfaction !
Or at least, I like having leader missiles purchasing me. That's part of what makes Rollcage fun when I play it.

Sometimes, you're f*cked no matter what you do. But, heh, that's the game, you can't win everytime
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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:49 pm

Hey, what about a reverse worm hole? Something that teleports you BEHIND the guy behind you! I know, you can just brake, but sometimes people see that (especially if you're way ahead of them) and do the same accordingly. For this to work it would be something instant cast and with no apparent visual effect, so people cannot expect that it's going to happen and you get to keep your position because -if you can time it properly- you can keep racing as you retain your speed and direction instead of having to start again after you brake to a stop.

Perhaps, since it's not really a "weapon" as it is a bit damaging for you, it can be made so that you can activate it if you have two homing missiles and fire them simultaneously while pressing a modifier key of some sort (because sometimes you still want to be able to fire two homers simultaneously and not be teleported).

edit:
oh and of course the leader missile must be really precise as you might be wanting to teleport right a split second before being hit, and the guy behind you is already laughing at the idea that you are about to get wasted, but then you teleport and the leader missile, which an instant before was aming for that other player, now suddenly turns to you and before you realize what happened it's already too late.
So, like, braking for other to take the beating, but on steroids!
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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby ApexAzimuth » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:19 pm

Great discussion and good points so far.

I'm gathering that people like the leader missile because of the excitement it brings to the race dynamic, as long as the leader missile isn't pesteringly common and too difficult to counter.

I do still think there's a problem when the outcome of a race is decided by who can best exploit/avoid the leader missile, even if it requires skill and practice to do. As a single RNG weapon pickup, it carries too much weight and could ultimately be a detriment to an honestly competitive game.

Still that's not to say it couldn't be balanced so that it still brings that excitement to the race without being such a heavy influence on the outcome.

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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby KazzyMac » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:17 pm

ApexAzimuth wrote:Great discussion and good points so far.

I'm gathering that people like the leader missile because of the excitement it brings to the race dynamic, as long as the leader missile isn't pesteringly common and too difficult to counter.

I do still think there's a problem when the outcome of a race is decided by who can best exploit/avoid the leader missile, even if it requires skill and practice to do. As a single RNG weapon pickup, it carries too much weight and could ultimately be a detriment to an honestly competitive game.

Still that's not to say it couldn't be balanced so that it still brings that excitement to the race without being such a heavy influence on the outcome.

We could just turn them off though, seems there will be options to disable certain weapons. :P
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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:59 pm

ApexAzimuth wrote:Great discussion and good points so far.

I'm gathering that people like the leader missile because of the excitement it brings to the race dynamic, as long as the leader missile isn't pesteringly common and too difficult to counter.

I do still think there's a problem when the outcome of a race is decided by who can best exploit/avoid the leader missile, even if it requires skill and practice to do. As a single RNG weapon pickup, it carries too much weight and could ultimately be a detriment to an honestly competitive game.

Still that's not to say it couldn't be balanced so that it still brings that excitement to the race without being such a heavy influence on the outcome.

Well, it's true that the leader missile has a huge impact in the game. Not only does it slow the leader, but it can also potentially slow an entire group of leaders if they are sufficiently close (one slow down cause he doesn't want to take it, the other player does the same, resulting in a funny global brake - happens only in multiplayer). But if you remove it, or if you tone it down, it's easier to stay first then.

But anyway, we will have a full alpha/beta campaign to balance it :)
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Re: Lets talk about the Leader Missile

Postby landvaarder » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:56 am

All i know is that i want to hoard up two of those...
And fire them when broscar gets in first :twisted:
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Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby Tiakh » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:32 pm

We all know the power up/weapon which hits the first place. In rollcage you can counter it with other weapons, e.g. drill or shield. In grip i dont know about scorpion missle, but the stingers do. I thought about how it would be if the assassin gets faster the longer it travels? Which would make the timing harder to counter it, the longer the gap to the first place is.
Maybe this could be a mechanic worth to look in to and test the balance out. I always feel the target the first place missle are a strong tool in every arcade racer, so it should be well balanced. In term of how powerful (explosion) and how often you get it. Making it stronger to targets with a bigger lead, could make it easier to catch them up again. Also you may give you a better feeling if you can defend you against some super fast assassin missle, because your already over an half of a lap in the lead. The feeling you archieved something would be greater, because of the higher difficulty. And if you don't, you will still have some lead to back you up. So not too much is lost in the try.

What do you think about it?

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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby landvaarder » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:31 pm

Tiakh wrote:We all know the power up/weapon which hits the first place. In rollcage you can counter it with other weapons, e.g. drill or shield. In grip i dont know about scorpion missle, but the stingers do. I thought about how it would be if the assassin gets faster the longer it travels? Which would make the timing harder to counter it, the longer the gap to the first place is.
Maybe this could be a mechanic worth to look in to and test the balance out. I always feel the target the first place missle are a strong tool in every arcade racer, so it should be well balanced. In term of how powerful (explosion) and how often you get it. Making it stronger to targets with a bigger lead, could make it easier to catch them up again. Also you may give you a better feeling if you can defend you against some super fast assassin missle, because your already over an half of a lap in the lead. The feeling you archieved something would be greater, because of the higher difficulty. And if you don't, you will still have some lead to back you up. So not too much is lost in the try.

What do you think about it?

Nice idea, but I have a problem with that.

mainly, the leader/assassin will probably be picked up most by the last player.
So if the last player is the only one that is bad at the game, and the rest is in a really tight pack, you get too much "oh crap" moments.
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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:18 pm

landvaarder wrote:
Tiakh wrote:We all know the power up/weapon which hits the first place. In rollcage you can counter it with other weapons, e.g. drill or shield. In grip i dont know about scorpion missle, but the stingers do. I thought about how it would be if the assassin gets faster the longer it travels? Which would make the timing harder to counter it, the longer the gap to the first place is.
Maybe this could be a mechanic worth to look in to and test the balance out. I always feel the target the first place missle are a strong tool in every arcade racer, so it should be well balanced. In term of how powerful (explosion) and how often you get it. Making it stronger to targets with a bigger lead, could make it easier to catch them up again. Also you may give you a better feeling if you can defend you against some super fast assassin missle, because your already over an half of a lap in the lead. The feeling you archieved something would be greater, because of the higher difficulty. And if you don't, you will still have some lead to back you up. So not too much is lost in the try.

What do you think about it?

Nice idea, but I have a problem with that.

mainly, the leader/assassin will probably be picked up most by the last player.
So if the last player is the only one that is bad at the game, and the rest is in a really tight pack, you get too much "oh crap" moments.

Especially if the last player wants to blockade the road. If ya know what I mean sir landvaarder :P
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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby Tiakh » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:12 pm

The how about reducing the chance of getting the assassin on last place? I mean beeing on the last place the assassin is one of the more useless weopons you can get. You could even go with that the first place and the last place can´t get the assassin at all, but maybe thats too much.

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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:34 pm

Tiakh wrote:The how about reducing the chance of getting the assassin on last place? I mean beeing on the last place the assassin is one of the more useless weopons you can get. You could even go with that the first place and the last place can´t get the assassin at all, but maybe thats too much.

You're just delaying the problem, because the same thing can happen with the car in front of the last car :D
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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby Chris_CE » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:49 am

The idea of having the assassin missile pick up speed is cool and could be easily tested, but I'm not big on the power of it changing depending on who it hits. I think there would be a bit of an uproar about that
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Re: Some thoughts about the "Assassin"

Postby Yrch » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:25 pm

imo one of the most important thing about the assassin is that its pretty hard to predict when it will arive at the leader.
in RC blocking a Leader Rocket was very hard when going into a turn while it was super easy to block on a straight so making it faster when fired from further behind would still keep it unpredictable while also increasing it effect. i remember times where it took multiple Laps for a rocket to hit the Leader wich was very fruststraiting when far behind.

another idea that just came up.
its a well known tactic to go to a full stop and let others overtake you to shake off a leader.
maybe adding a small AE effeckt could prevent that or at least make it more risky to do while also helping those further behind.


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