Pick-ups picking system

From turbos to missiles, discuss Grip's pick-ups here

Whiplash
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:11 am

harrisonosirrah wrote:I disagree on both points.

So, you're ok with having the current system where chance to get a certain pick-up depends on position you are?

Anyway, I really can't see why more of options can split the community. That way we could also ask for one track and one car only too. The community would be perfectly united then. ;)

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harrisonosirrah
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby harrisonosirrah » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:16 am

Yes, I like the current system. It gives people in last a chance to make ground up. And it makes it so whoever is in first doesn't get complacent.

To me, it feels like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

And if you can't see how more options splits a community, all you need to do is look at any third-person shooter that offers Free-Aim and Soft-Lock lobbies. When you have two different rules sets some people will like one or the other and they can't play together. Or worse, the more skilled and experienced players are forced to use a system they don't like because that's where the bulk of the multiplayer community is.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about one track one car.

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:46 pm

harrisonosirrah wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say about one track one car.

Well, I feel like having 1 car, 1 track and 1 mode would be a perfect game for you then, cause all of the players would have to play that and the community will be perfectly united, as I said.
I simply don't think that the game would lose anything by having more options. We also already have option to disable pick-ups totally in RC1, and that's actually a great thing. It just makes the game to have more variety and its life becomes longer.
Don't tell me we now need to kill that option too, just to make some forced "unity".

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby harrisonosirrah » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:09 pm

Whiplash wrote:
harrisonosirrah wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say about one track one car.

Well, I feel like having 1 car, 1 track and 1 mode would be a perfect game for you then, cause all of the players would have to play that and the community will be perfectly united, as I said.
I simply don't think that the game would lose anything by having more options. We also already have option to disable pick-ups totally in RC1, and that's actually a great thing. It just makes the game to have more variety and its life becomes longer.
Don't tell me we now need to kill that option too, just to make some forced "unity".


No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the current system works and would be easier to balance than some loadout/pool system. I appreciate you simplifying my views to make them sound silly though, real classy.

And in any game, adding more and more options takes more and more time and recourses. Having the developers make multiple pick-up systems would mean that they can't focus on one system as much to tweak and perfect it.

And the option to turn off power-up completely in RC1 was neat, for singleplayer, I don't even think it was an option for multiplayer. And the effect too many options has on multiplayer is one of the points I'm trying to make to you.

More options do give a game more variety, but it doesn't necessarily make the game's lifespan longer. In fact it could do the opposite for the same reason I've said before, it splits the online community. And as I'm sure most of us have seen, in many cases a split player base dies faster.

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:17 pm

Whiplash wrote:
harrisonosirrah wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say about one track one car.

Well, I feel like having 1 car, 1 track and 1 mode would be a perfect game for you then, cause all of the players would have to play that and the community will be perfectly united, as I said.
I simply don't think that the game would lose anything by having more options. We also already have option to disable pick-ups totally in RC1, and that's actually a great thing. It just makes the game to have more variety and its life becomes longer.
Don't tell me we now need to kill that option too, just to make some forced "unity".

Your example is pushed way too far.

I have a perfect example to illustrate what harrison said : Torchlight 2

Torchlight 2 is a "Diablo 2"-like hack'n'slash ; they implemented the possibility to have mods on the steam workshop - which is great for single player. Though, not that great for multiplayer, and I will explain why.

Before they did that, there was just one multiplayer lobby, and it was very easy to find a MP game.

Right now, here is what happens in Torchlight 2 : some random guy called Mr. A wants to play multiplayer. He has installed 10 different mods, and he does not see any game with these mods. So he hosts. Another random guy called Mr. B also wants to play multiplayer. He has installed 10 different mods as well, but his list different from A's one. So he cannot join the game of Mr. A, and he doesn't want to change his mod configuration anyway. So he creates his own game as well, hoping for someone to join.
...
And that's how you end up by having 20 multiplayer games with nobody but their host inside. That's the true sad story of Torchlight 2 multiplayer right now. So the solution is to play without any mod, and then you can find games. Because that's the only place left of Torchlight 2 where there are still players.

Actually, things are even worst, because you can choose between 4 difficulties ; if you start in Elite ,and join a game in Veteran, that's fine, but then your progress will be kind of broken because you will have a ez pz time in Veteran while you should have struggled in Elite. As a result, Elite players only play with Elite one, Veteran players only play with Veteran, and so on..

Having a few options in GRIP is fine. But having too much would lead to something similar. Especially when options are just little modifications like yours. I'm not saying you are going to add an option for every variable of the game, but maybe these kind of small modifications are not big enough to exist as options. Maybe :)
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Whiplash
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:23 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:...Your example is pushed way too far...
...I have a perfect example to illustrate what harrison said : Torchlight 2...

Yeah, nice comparison. :P Have in mind that GRIP will be totally different type of game. It will hardly have more than 12 players in a single server (multi-player cup), so you will obviously have to have tons of servers. So, people will have to be split to all of those servers no matter if we have more options or not.
Also, comparing this options with totally new mods (installed separately to the game) is really misleading. Having options to set different picking-up system is almost the same as having options to set different number of laps. That just can't harm the game at all. It can only improve it.

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Tazeram
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Tazeram » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:24 pm

Whiplash wrote:Having options to set different picking-up system is almost the same as having options to set different number of laps. That just can't harm the game at all. It can only improve it.


I have to agree with Potterman and Harrisonosirrah here.

The pick-up system should be something systematic, meaning in-built into the game and follows an agreed rule. It's up to Chris to decide. For all we know, considering he has already implemented pick-ups, he may have already finalised his decision on how the pick-ups system will work.

I do share the same worries as the other two guys. Too many choices may dilute the online gameplay and divide the community.

I agree that it makes sense to have some choice with modes that have a clear and unique purpose (I.E. Standard Mode, Turbo-only mode), but trying to give choice on something such as how random the pick-ups are, is a bit too far IMO.

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:34 pm

12 players cap? Nobody said anything about caps, or did I miss something?
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:40 pm

Unreal.2K7 wrote:12 players cap? Nobody said anything about caps, or did I miss something?


I haven't seen anything. I know it seems to support -at least- 8 players because in the trailers I've seen that many cars. But neither Chris or Rob have said exactly how many cars can or will be in a race at once. It'd be nice to have 10 or 12 cars per race though.
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Tazeram » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:45 pm

There is a point where the game would get too busy, but i do get excited in the trailer by the fact the race can handle more opponents, wether AI or human.

I believe 8 - 12 is an ideal range.

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:05 pm

Unreal.2K7 wrote:12 players cap? Nobody said anything about caps, or did I miss something?

Hmm.. What's the relation between this and the pick-ups picking system ? :geek:
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Whiplash
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Whiplash » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:59 pm

Unreal.2K7 wrote:12 players cap? Nobody said anything about caps, or did I miss something?

Nah. I just thought that's an optimal number. But, hey, that's a nice question for a poll. Some admin could make it (answers: 6, 8, 10, 12, more). The question should be: What's the maximum number of players you expect to be on a track? That means that all the lower numbers will be optional in the game.

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Chris_CE » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:55 pm

The idea of labeling power-ups vs weapons is interesting, but I wouldn't want to go with Blur's system of labeling everything. I think the surprise is good in this case
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Tazeram » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:43 am

Blue = Power ups, Red = Weapons, yes? :P

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby KazzyMac » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:25 am

Chris_CE wrote:The idea of labeling power-ups vs weapons is interesting, but I wouldn't want to go with Blur's system of labeling everything. I think the surprise is good in this case


We were talking just about making them easier to pick out in the HUD, since we're assuming that the pickups on-track will be randomised and you won't know what you get until you get it?

One second spent looking at the hud to figure out what an icon is for is one second spent potentially crashing the car or getting a missile up the chuff. :P
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Chris_CE » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:34 pm

Oh yeah, they'll be colour coded in the HUD, guaranteed. But I was exploring the idea of having them shown on the track: power-up vs weapon. Could be interesting. Might be a good middle ground between showing everything and making it completely random.

I just had a thought: what if pick-ups were able to be targeted by missiles, so you could prevent someone from grabbing it.
IE. guy in front of you has a shield engaged. You can't hit him with a missile, but you can blow up the pick-up he's about to grab and possibly use against you.

Very flippant thought by the way. It's pretty late and my brain is doing strange things.


Also, there's no player cap as of right now. I did have about 20 AI in our arena-type test map running around killing each other and that was pretty bananas
In an actual race though it would be utter chaos.. and possibly performance crippling

Tazeram wrote:It's up to Chris to decide.

And Rob ;)
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Tazeram » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:10 am

I like the idea of shooting pick-ups. How about actually shooting the Hologram-projector things you have going on in the Trailer, by being able to lock onto them with a Rocket or EMP, which temporarily removes the pick-up and stops the projector from functioning for a short period of time...

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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Unreal.2K7 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:52 am

Chris_CE wrote:Also, there's no player cap as of right now. I did have about 20 AI in our arena-type test map running around killing each other and that was pretty bananas

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Also, about the targeting pickups: i believe there would be problems with priority. If you want to destroy a pickup before someone else takes it, that means the pickup and player are pretty close. So how can you tell if the player wants to shoot the car or the pickup?
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Re: Pick-ups picking system

Postby Tazeram » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:43 pm

Perhaps the idea is that if you are ahead of someone, and you happen to have the targeting Rocket weapon, and you don't need any more pick-ups, or you want one but will shoot another out of line with your trajectory, you can shoot it so the player behind you can't get it.

I don't know how useful this feature will be, thinking about it. It would perhaps only be useful in certain circumstances.


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