The EMP

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Cybruiser57Péter
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Re: The EMP

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:59 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
codemonkey wrote:At this point we only have two full-time coders on this job, so I can't see that happening too soon :-|

I think that most people here just want to hear that it's on the "to-do" list rather than being "yes, we're working on it now". We know that the workforce is very low, so if you guys like the idea and will want to implement it later on, then that's basically what will make a lot people happy. Even if that will happen in a long time from now.

Like Ryu said, I just want to know it's going to be implemented in the future?
No need to rush it or anything.
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Re: The EMP

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:16 pm

I'm not a big fan of an effect that looks like a lightning bolt coming down from the sky and striking the car, but I agree that this effect needs electricity. And that's why it says WIP in the patch notes ;)

Ryu Makkuro wrote:But as it is now, it's just a perfect tool for keeping the pack away from the leader, just saying.

This can be solved by just having the range of the EMP level-wide, so that everyone gets hit regardless. Then the leader will always be affected
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Re: The EMP

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:28 am

Chris_CE wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:But as it is now, it's just a perfect tool for keeping the pack away from the leader, just saying.

This can be solved by just having the range of the EMP level-wide, so that everyone gets hit regardless. Then the leader will always be affected

Indeed, however that would make it definitely more OP, which means it would have to be more rare to get. If you would keep it as it is, it could end up being that you can't get properly up to speed because it's just going to be an EMP spam all over the place. Even now it sometimes end up being that, especially when AI unleashes it on Alhatra at the cross-point.
On the other hand, if it will be too rare, then the whole point of it being a pickup that keeps the pack together will become kind of pointless... definitely a hard one to balance out and make it work like it should.

I think that a "Wormhole" pick up would solve a lot of issues here. Just teleport to the 1st place :D
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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby WROB3L » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:30 am

Emp should look like THAT
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby dwbmb » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:39 am

WROB3L wrote:Emp should look like THAT


NO.

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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:36 am

dwbmb wrote:
WROB3L wrote:Emp should look like THAT


NO.

+1 for the no.

It just looks odd, and it doesn't reflect that the EMP moves in all directions.
What if you're striken by a 300 meters away car ? You would have a giant lightning all over the track ? :P
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Re: The EMP

Postby VooDooQky » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:30 pm

By the way, can we expect that the weapon gets a "charge-up" effect before releasing, in the future?

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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:06 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:What if you're striken by a 300 meters away car ? You would have a giant lightning all over the track ? :P

That sounds awesome... but I do have to agree on the "no" vote. If we're going into more "locking on to someone" mode, then a kind of projectile that when hits releases a small range shockwave would work better.
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Re: The EMP

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:40 pm

If the range of the EMP isn't big enough to hit the leader then that's much worse than anything, allowing them to easily win the race, so having it affect everyone map-wide is the best option IMO. But yea, the balancing will come in how much it spawns and how long the effect is on each car

Also, once pickup combining is in, there could be combinations that work differently from the standard EMP, which may stop the general spamming so much (for example, missile + emp = mega shock rocket that disables a targeted car for X amount of time, not the whole pack)

VooDooQky wrote:By the way, can we expect that the weapon gets a "charge-up" effect before releasing, in the future?

Didn't really think about this. I suppose it might add more strategy to the power-up
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Re: The EMP

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:48 pm

Chris_CE wrote:
VooDooQky wrote:By the way, can we expect that the weapon gets a "charge-up" effect before releasing, in the future?

Didn't really think about this. I suppose it might add more strategy to the power-up

I thought it was quite obvious that this wouldn't be applied since at that point it wouldn't differ much from the "Explosion" pick up in Rollcage Stage 2. The EMP technically releases a charge, and I would say that the pick-up itself contains that charge, so there's no need to for yet another "charge-up".

Also, having the EMP always have the epicentre at where the leader is wouldn't be better? That way you could actually make it appear a bit more often and it would more reliably keep the pack together. I think this is the best solution before EMP will be put into more "final" state.
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Re: The EMP

Postby VooDooQky » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:53 pm

In my imagination the cars are kinda like swiss knives, which, before the race, already got mounted with various weapons, and the pickups are only enabling them for the pilots to use (like in the 2008 movie, Death Race). Let's say, minding my logic that the car carries two batteries. One is a fixed, EMP protected energy battery to keep up everything related to driving, like the control panel, servo motors, gyroscopic seat, pilot health monitor and the like, and the other one is a fast rechargeable one for the pickups, like the KERS in Formula 1. I assume there that most pickups do not use up much energy from that battery. Maybe maintaining the Aegis or the Gattlers gun motor could be an expection from that, minding the recently available repertoire. Since the EMP is an electromagnetic discharge, it is most effective when it's energy source is loaded to the maximum before releasing it all. That's when the charge-up sequence comes in. The faster you go, the faster it charges up.

Altought i noticed one or two flaw in my theory:
While the charge-up is in progress, you shouldn't be able to use any other pickup in that short meantime (and after that for a little while, since the other pickups need some energy to build up aswell).
If you didn't used up any of the built up kinetic energy in the race, so the battery is on the maximum, the EMP should be instant.
And that brings the question, if there would be indeed that kinda battery, how would you know it's charge level? Maybe a plus index for it?

Well, that's all for my looney fantasies for now :DD

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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby WROB3L » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:06 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:
dwbmb wrote:
WROB3L wrote:Emp should look like THAT


NO.

+1 for the no.

It just looks odd, and it doesn't reflect that the EMP moves in all directions.
What if you're striken by a 300 meters away car ? You would have a giant lightning all over the track ? :P



The whole car would be electrified, so the lightning would spawn and hit every opponent that youre close to.
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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby Queadah » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:34 pm

No worries WROB3L, I'm pretty sure at least the electric arcs on car will be displayed. After all, EMP stands for ElectroMagnetic Pulse

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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:58 am

Didn't we had another post about the EMP?
Science WINS again!!!
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The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
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Re: Feedback on 1.0.10.1

Postby Queadah » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:11 pm

mmh yeah https://cagedelement.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3427
Sorry, I knew your Q was rhetorical X)

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Re: The EMP

Postby potterman28wxcv » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:05 pm

Moved the posts about EMP from there to here.
Thanks guys for the heads-up.
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Re: The EMP

Postby TheOnLY » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:41 pm

I still (1.0.11.1) dont like the current EMP implementation at all. It feels really unpolished compared to the rest of the game (talking about its function not visuals):

  • The fact that is has a limited range often results in the leader group not being hit, giving them an even bigger advantage, especially @ Noros
  • Why does the car bump UP when i get hit? If the car would react to it, it should lose the suspension
  • Effectiveness is highly affected by where you are when getting hit. If i am going slow or crash the moment i get hit i am basically sitting around for a few seconds waiting for the effect to wear off, whereas an other player that was going 500 km/h will drop to 400-300 km/h and still drive a huge distance. Going Uphill almost stops you too...
  • Also why does the EMP Effect the only thing that is not powered by electricity?

    I think reducing engine power (50% maybe) instead of completely removing it would be much better.
    As of now it just breaks the games flow

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Re: The EMP

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:11 pm

TheOnLY wrote:I still (1.0.11.1) dont like the current EMP implementation at all. It feels really unpolished compared to the rest of the game (talking about its function not visuals):

  • The fact that is has a limited range often results in the leader group not being hit, giving them an even bigger advantage, especially @ Noros
  • Why does the car bump UP when i get hit? If the car would react to it, it should lose the suspension
  • Effectiveness is highly affected by where you are when getting hit. If i am going slow or crash the moment i get hit i am basically sitting around for a few seconds waiting for the effect to wear off, whereas an other player that was going 500 km/h will drop to 400-300 km/h and still drive a huge distance. Going Uphill almost stops you too...
  • Also why does the EMP Effect the only thing that is not powered by electricity?

    I think reducing engine power (50% maybe) instead of completely removing it would be much better.
    As of now it just breaks the games flow


-I think the range should be the whole map, so that the leader always gets hit
-It bumps up cause it looks cool :P
-This is true to an extent, and that's why it's hard to have anything like this. EMP needs tweaking, you're right
-The wheels are electromagnetic, so they are shut down and grinding. The jet thrust turns off cause fuel injector is turned off.

EMP needs some work, I agree. But I don't think it's currently broken or highly unbalanced
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Re: The EMP

Postby maniamaster » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:19 am

The main point I dislike about the EMP at the moment - apart from the effectiveness or lack thereof on the leader - is how much it disrupts the fast flow of the game. In a game that's all about speed, having something slow you down gradually feels ... disappointing.
It's never so effective that you feel you are hindered in a huge way, instead, I often get a "roll eyes" reaction because I now have to (slowly) accelerate again.
You can argue that missiles do the same job, but at least there you feel an impact - your car get's flung around and something exciting happens. With the EMP, it's just boring since you just lose speed. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Now I know we've had this topic a lot, but please consider these points: To me, here are the key features the time warp - pickup does better than the emp:

    Immidiate effect:
Unlike the EMP, the effect takes place immidiately for all players so you don't have any problems with the race leader escaping the blast radius or postponing the impact.

    No loss of flow:
Since the time slowdown can be shut down arbitrarily fast, you regain all of your speed once the effect vanishes. This to me is the main advatntage and far better than having to build all of your momentum again. Also, the turning radius would not be affected, since you are still technically at full speed, meaning you can still struggle with corners.

    It looks amazing:
Going into slowmotion mode already looks amazing with this game, seeing all of the bullets from the minigun and explosions in altered time just adds to the intensity, instead of taking away from it.

    Scalable:
The timewarp could easily be scaled by just altering the slowdown factor in relation to your race position. The leader would be slowed down by 50%, for example, while the ones behind you would just get slowed down a bit or could even be unaffected. With this, the race leader would always be punished most, something I think will be impossible, with the current iteration, since he can always outrun the bubble for a huge amount of time. Buffing the EMP so that the leader gets shut down even more, would disrupt the flow even more.


Now I know that it would probably be really hard to implement properly, especially considering the correct slowdown of the pickups (Would the assasin slow down ? By which amount ? What about the scorpions: would they fly at the same speed as the car that has fired them etc...). But all of the above -to me- shows some clear advantages over the EMP.

I have honestly already given up all hope on a time warp implementation, but maybe you could find a way to adress these issues in some way. For example by adding an extra effect in addition to just a loss of engine power, or by providing some burst acceleration afterwards. What about forcing the players to keep turning in some direction for a small amount of time ?

Sorry for the wall of text.

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Re: The EMP

Postby Queadah » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:18 am

Warp could be lvl 2 EMP (see stacking). Could be a good compromise (I think the EMP has its place in GRIP)


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