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The EMP

Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:56 pm
by TheOnLY
Instead of having discussions in multiple threads about it i think we should have a single one where feedback regarding it is collected.

Personally I like the EMP. It does a great job in keeping a group of cars together, its duration and effect could use some tweaks though.

Things i don't like about it:
  • If you are standing still while being hit it is significantly worse than when you are going fast.
    Maybe have just reduced power instead of none?

  • It is given only to the players in the back of the field, slowing all of them down and making it even easier for the leading players to get away.
    I think it should primarily given to players in front (2nd to 5th maybe?) so it slows down the leading pack of players allowing everyone else to catch up, instead of slowing down the slower players even more.

  • It is so effective on maximum range.
    It slows player that are barely cought by it down as much as someone that is very close to its origin.I think it should have a drop off over distance

Re: The EMP

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:52 am
by potterman28wxcv
I think the effect is already decreasing on the range - it already happened to me to be under effect of the EMP for less than a second.

Maybe the decreasing gradient should be even more pronounced though. I agree that it's a bit OP right now.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:48 pm
by Broscar
It's very OP and Chris said that's currently in part to compensate for the lack of proper catchup.
I'd imagine proper balancing begins (for all weapons, including drop tables) once multiplayer is well in.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:36 pm
by codemonkey
The EMP is meant to try and level the field a bit, and its effect is designed around that. Players behind the aggressor, in terms of race distance, don't get affected at all in real terms. Players in front, do get affected, according to how far in front they are - the further in front, the more they get affected. This only happens of course if they get caught in the blast radius - sometimes they're so far away that they miss it altogether.

Having the effect drop off over distance would of course negate the purpose of the weapon, even though it might make some logical sense in the inverse square law etc.

You can pick up an EMP wherever you are in the field, though you're more likely to get one at the rear than at the front. We believe this is the right approach making it an effective leveller.

I've modified the next build to not affect you so much if you're already going real slow.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:40 pm
by codemonkey
Broscar wrote:It's very OP and Chris said that's currently in part to compensate for the lack of proper catchup.
I'd imagine proper balancing begins (for all weapons, including drop tables) once multiplayer is well in.

It's not accurate to say there is not proper catchup in the game, in fact the catchup system in this game is already more complex than any game I've ever worked on, and I've worked on a few. It is true to say though that it requires a lot of testing and balancing, which as you point out we're just not at the right stage for at this moment. That will come when all the weapons are in, the AI has been given a fair bit more I, and we have a few more tracks to test the whole thing out on.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:23 pm
by Ryu Makkuro
Since Alhatra is effectively a figure of 8, every single time you launch the EMP on the first bridge (or under it) you hit basically everyone. Definitely quite OP.

Would be nice if the EMP would affect normal weaponry, like mines, stinger missiles and machine gun, but had no effect on the Assassin. On the mines I mean more that they stop detecting cars, but once the effect wears off, they work again. Could lead to some funny moments :D Stinger missile simply shuts the engine and drops down, which naturally leads to a detonation on the impact. Again, possibly leading to some hilarious moments xD

I've been wondering what an effect the EMP could've if we had electric powered cars in the game. Maybe act as a massive turbo that just makes the car hilariously uncontrollable xD Something like driving at 400km/h and in less than a second your speed goes to 1000km/h (brakes don't work due to EMP). That would be spectacular and would give the EMP users a bit of a thinking. Cause that kind of a boost on a straight piece of road would effectively reverse the effect.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:00 pm
by potterman28wxcv
Ryu Makkuro wrote:Would be nice if the EMP would affect normal weaponry, like mines, stinger missiles and machine gun, but had no effect on the Assassin. On the mines I mean more that they stop detecting cars, but once the effect wears off, they work again. Could lead to some funny moments :D Stinger missile simply shuts the engine and drops down, which naturally leads to a detonation on the impact. Again, possibly leading to some hilarious moments xD

Would be really nice indeed to see the EMP affecting in some way the other weapons.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:I've been wondering what an effect the EMP could've if we had electric powered cars in the game. Maybe act as a massive turbo that just makes the car hilariously uncontrollable xD Something like driving at 400km/h and in less than a second your speed goes to 1000km/h (brakes don't work due to EMP). That would be spectacular and would give the EMP users a bit of a thinking. Cause that kind of a boost on a straight piece of road would effectively reverse the effect.

It would be a mess x)

Re: The EMP

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:00 pm
by Queadah
potterman28wxcv wrote:Would be really nice indeed to see the EMP affecting in some way the other weapons.

+1, destroy/inhibit mines ? Trigger/disrupt the aiming of missiles ? Empty pickup slots/prevent their use for a slightly longer period of time ?

Also, I've come to agree with WROB3L about more visual flair on the EMP (e.g. Matrix):
Image
lightning COULD be a good indicator of who got hit and give visual satisfaction to the one triggering the EMP.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:46 am
by potterman28wxcv
Queadah wrote:lightning COULD be a good indicator of who got hit and give visual satisfaction to the one triggering the EMP.

It could be clustering too much the screen though.. It would have to be small sparks if you don't want your car to be in a lightning storm.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:17 am
by Ryu Makkuro
potterman28wxcv wrote:It would be a mess x)

I like that kind of mess personally. Probably because I don't have anything against clusterfucks in Battlefield 3 xD

potterman28wxcv wrote:
Queadah wrote:lightning COULD be a good indicator of who got hit and give visual satisfaction to the one triggering the EMP.

It could be clustering too much the screen though.. It would have to be small sparks if you don't want your car to be in a lightning storm.

Who said we don't want to be in a lightning storm? :D

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:42 am
by potterman28wxcv
Ryu Makkuro wrote:
potterman28wxcv wrote:
Queadah wrote:lightning COULD be a good indicator of who got hit and give visual satisfaction to the one triggering the EMP.

It could be clustering too much the screen though.. It would have to be small sparks if you don't want your car to be in a lightning storm.

Who said we don't want to be in a lightning storm? :D

It would be too much.

Lightning storm sounds more like an environmental hazard rather than something induced by a single vehicle.
I mean it's on a much bigger scale than scorpions / assassins / quakers

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:32 am
by codemonkey
We like lightning effects, they're just very tricky to do right and rendering in a convincing style. This is something we would work towards, but it's going to be too time-consuming to do right now so expect improvements in the future.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:41 am
by Ryu Makkuro
potterman28wxcv wrote:Lightning storm sounds more like an environmental hazard rather than something induced by a single vehicle.
I mean it's on a much bigger scale than scorpions / assassins / quakers

How about a place on the map where if you engage the EMP it triggers an environmental hazard or something along the lines of there happening a litteral thunderstorm. Maybe racing through some research centre where they have been experimenting with weather control and... well, I think you get the gist of possibilities.

codemonkey wrote:We like lightning effects, they're just very tricky to do right and rendering in a convincing style. This is something we would work towards, but it's going to be too time-consuming to do right now so expect improvements in the future.

I personally see that as the obvious thing. All the "eye-candy" will be seen more towards the actual release. You can't build a house without laying a foundation first after all (that is unless you don't mind living in something that will fall apart at any time).

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:48 pm
by Cybruiser57Péter
codemonkey wrote:The EMP is meant to try and level the field a bit, and its effect is designed around that. Players behind the aggressor, in terms of race distance, don't get affected at all in real terms. Players in front, do get affected, according to how far in front they are - the further in front, the more they get affected. This only happens of course if they get caught in the blast radius - sometimes they're so far away that they miss it altogether.

If this is the plan for the EMP in the future, than the current visual design (360° bubble shockwave) is not a good choice. I would imagine a more focused shockwave that generated in-front of the car, then sweep through the track as it moves forward, (like a moving EMP wall) but it's going to fade a way after some distance.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:22 pm
by TheOnLY
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:
codemonkey wrote:The EMP is meant to try and level the field a bit, and its effect is designed around that. Players behind the aggressor, in terms of race distance, don't get affected at all in real terms. Players in front, do get affected, according to how far in front they are - the further in front, the more they get affected. This only happens of course if they get caught in the blast radius - sometimes they're so far away that they miss it altogether.

If this is the plan for the EMP in the future, than the current visual design (360° bubble shockwave) is not a good choice. I would imagine a more focused shockwave that generated in-front of the car, then sweep through the track as it moves forward, (like a moving EMP wall) but it's going to fade a way after some distance.

+1 could be very awesome

I would also like to see more effects on the car. Something like this, just without the fire and smoke:
Image

Re: The EMP

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:25 pm
by Ryu Makkuro
TheOnLY wrote:
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:
codemonkey wrote:The EMP is meant to try and level the field a bit, and its effect is designed around that. Players behind the aggressor, in terms of race distance, don't get affected at all in real terms. Players in front, do get affected, according to how far in front they are - the further in front, the more they get affected. This only happens of course if they get caught in the blast radius - sometimes they're so far away that they miss it altogether.

If this is the plan for the EMP in the future, than the current visual design (360° bubble shockwave) is not a good choice. I would imagine a more focused shockwave that generated in-front of the car, then sweep through the track as it moves forward, (like a moving EMP wall) but it's going to fade a way after some distance.

+1 could be very awesome

I add to that as well. A wave that goes forward would be the best. Something like that chasing electric ball in Crash Team Racing :D

Re: The EMP

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:30 am
by codemonkey
Cybruiser57Péter wrote:
codemonkey wrote:The EMP is meant to try and level the field a bit, and its effect is designed around that. Players behind the aggressor, in terms of race distance, don't get affected at all in real terms. Players in front, do get affected, according to how far in front they are - the further in front, the more they get affected. This only happens of course if they get caught in the blast radius - sometimes they're so far away that they miss it altogether.

If this is the plan for the EMP in the future, than the current visual design (360° bubble shockwave) is not a good choice. I would imagine a more focused shockwave that generated in-front of the car, then sweep through the track as it moves forward, (like a moving EMP wall) but it's going to fade a way after some distance.

I agree, it wasn't the perfect choice, but even just that sphere effect took a couple of days or so to implement. Your suggestion to have a shock wave follow all the contours of the multiple routes around the track ahead of you (because the effect is based on race distance, not linear distance), while more accurate, would probably take the better part of a month to get right. At this point we only have two full-time coders on this job, so I can't see that happening too soon :-|

Re: The EMP

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:33 am
by Ryu Makkuro
codemonkey wrote:At this point we only have two full-time coders on this job, so I can't see that happening too soon :-|

I think that most people here just want to hear that it's on the "to-do" list rather than being "yes, we're working on it now". We know that the workforce is very low, so if you guys like the idea and will want to implement it later on, then that's basically what will make a lot people happy. Even if that will happen in a long time from now.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:27 am
by Sigrid
Queadah wrote:Also, I've come to agree with WROB3L about more visual flair on the EMP (e.g. Matrix):
Image

Dude, this is precisely the image i had in mind when thinking about the EMP.

Re: The EMP

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:59 am
by Ryu Makkuro
Ok, after a bit of additional testing and being stuck in behind for longer than usual, I can say one thing... EMP is the best thing if you want to make sure that the AI won't catch up to the leader.

I mean ok, IF the leader gets hit by it, it gets slowed by roughly 5 times longer than other cars. Problem is, if someone gets the lead, due to other positions fighting against each other the 1st place will just fly away and get out of the EMP range in a matter of seconds. At that point every single EMP unleashed by the 4-6th places is extending the lead that the 1st place has.

Now a quick-fix that won't need a new visual animation. Let's say that when you activate EMP, it locks to the leader position, and then 3s after that the EMP blow explodes there (aka being shot from a satellite in the space, let's say it would take about 3s to reach the surface). In that time the leader should still be in the blast zone, unless he would be going 1000 km/h+ for about 6 seconds, which I doubt. This will effectively slow down the leader always while making sure the pack stays together a lot more effectively. Kind of reminds me of the Goldeneye satellite from the Bond movie... "Goldeneye".

But as it is now, it's just a perfect tool for keeping the pack away from the leader, just saying.