Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

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Broscar
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Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Broscar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:52 pm

Considering the dislike of the current EMP weapon by most players, what do you guys think would make a good EMP weapon?

Existing topic on the EMP.
Thread containing complaints about the EMP and suggestions for alternate implementations.

Feel free to suggest alternate effects and to discuss existing suggestions :)

Suggestions so far:

Most recent/relevant dev feedback:
Spoiler: show
Chris_CE wrote:Here's my take on what to do with the EMP after seeing this thread, and discussing it on Skype:

  • "EMP" is now changed to "Virus", a new pickup essentially taking the EMP's place. An electromagnetic pulse pickup will no longer be in the game
  • Virus, as Kmac mentioned, still disables the player's shield but can also have one of a variety of effects on your car, such as:
    -Inverting left and right steering controls
    -Inverting acceleration and braking inputs
    -locking the accelerator, with no braking allowed
    -immediately forcing the player to use the pickups in their inventory (if none, the code will not refer to this)
    -flipping the camera to disorient the player
    -disables traction control, so the car slips and slides (similar to the freeze power-up from rollcage)
  • All cars in the race are affected by the Virus, but what happens to them and the duration of it is determined by race position
  • To let the player know what the virus is doing, there will be a HUD indicator for each type of effect, plus possibly a visual effect on the car. There will also be a lead-up time before the car is effected, so the player can prepare to react
  • Virus has new particle effects, and gets rid of the dome thing from the EMP effects.

I agree with others saying the EMP is dull and annoying. The biggest problem with it is that it slows people down forcefully, when a Virus pickup would keep them at speed, but possibly cause they to crash or bump into things, effectively slowing them down without directly doing it.

Slowing cars down unnaturally also creates problems for parts of track that require speed, like on SkyTrack

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:47 pm

How about literally stopping the car in place for few seconds? As in time stops. Maybe more possible than slowing time.

Other than that... well, don't really know. The problem with EMP is that there isn't any counter for it. I much prefer the implementation in other games, where it's a short range lock-on that temporarily disables the performance and possibly also veers the car off the course. But at that point it no longer becomes anti-1st place weapon, so there should be something else that would do that along the Assassin.

In other words issues, issues and issues. Oh, don't forget about issues.
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:06 am

The 3 "Suggestions" is more like a virus/hacking type weapon than an actual EMP.

I don't know how add a suggestion to the EMP, because it's an electromagnetic pulse it does what you except from it. It's basically the GRIP version of the Global Pulse (Secret Star) from Re-Volt (anyone who played that game knows what I'm talking about, if not, than read bellow). The only issue I found to be bothering is the car lifting effect.

"The Global Pulse is a that, when fired, emits an electromagnetic pulse on a global scale, temporarily disabling all other racers except for the one that fired it for about three seconds."

But if the those suggestion came in, than we should re-name something appropriate like Virus, Irritator or HAAX... *Monitor collides with face, producing bloody mess*
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby VooDooQky » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:32 am

I think what the EMP does is just right on spot except it's bump, and it's frequent occurrence. Come on, it's an EMP blast, what else do you expect it to do?

It would only need some tweak about it's appearance chance, make it global, remove the bump, and bring back the sparks on the cars... aside from visual effects tuning ofc.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:06 pm

Been talking to Chris and some others about this and the main suggestion is like what a few people mentioned here; some sort of virus (EMP Virus or just Virus or whatever), though rather than it doing just one thing (which would become predictable) it can do a bunch of different things - so you can learn what can happen but won't know until it hits you.

Such as;

Inverting steering (as suggested here);
Inverting accelerate/brake;
Flipping the camera upside-down;
Immediately/constantly spamming any and every weapon you pick up;
Locked acceleration, no braking (as suggested here);

The suggestion is that it should still temporarily disable the shield, to make an EMP/missile combo still effective, and it should also have some means of a distortion/obstruction on the screen (glitching HUD/screen elements, noises, weird lights etc? dunno). There could maybe need to be a particular 'tell' for what effect it's had on the car, though (i.e. red shock effect on the car = inverted accelerate/brake, blue = inverted steering, green = weapon spam, etc) so there's still some way to tell what's going on and adjust quickly.


I don't know if it would still be a global effect, whether it launches at the car right ahead, launches at 1st, launches at 1st-3rd, etc. Just an idea for making the EMP into something that's still annoying and doesn't instantaneously crash you out on some of the racetracks. :P
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby kingbeandip » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:27 pm

I really like that the current EMP disables the shield. I always get super nervous when my shield is down, and it can be used to defeat someone else's shield. Either way it's fun. As for improvement, I think the EMP should have a shorter range, disable the engine for a shorter duration, and *possibly* disable weapons for a little longer. This should make it less annoying because the range will make it less likely to get hit, and you won't lose all your speed all the time.

I also thought of an alternate effect: Force all racers hit by the EMP to prematurely use one of their powerups at random (so all the sudden there could be a barrage of chaotic missile and other fire, and it would be fun to force people to boost at a bad time). Obviously, you might not want the EMP to fire behind you because you could trigger someone to shoot you in the back.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby maniamaster » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:19 pm

For me the most important problem is how dull the emp is. It is not exciting to just get slowed down and start accelerating again, especially with the current acceleration being rather slow.

What if...
The emp fired all weapons of hit opponents prematurely, but the weapons actually backfire.

When holding rockets, they would get launched into the air and target yourself. Same could work for the assasin (though pretty op maybe). Mines would prematurely explode after being dropped, the gattling gun could disturb the movement by jittering etc. Turbo could prematurely fire with disabled or weakened turning radius and brakes...

Basically the emp turns your weapons into threats for yourself. The shield would still get disabled. This would make for an extremely tense situation:

Pros:
    Interesting risk / reward decision for players ahead (do I keep the weapons in risk of them backfirering?)

    Makes counterplay somewhat possible as you could dodge your own missiles.

    You could still scale impact based on position. Or you can leave the emp global

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Queadah » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:07 pm

I'm with Voo mostly on "what did you expect".
That being said, imo, EMP could use:
  • massive visual buff (more sparks + lightning effect + make that orb more menacing)
  • make the car slightly drift left & right consecutively on impact
  • HUD booting sequence?
  • make it so you can still benefit (in a lesser extent?) from a speed boost while EMPed (but still visual effect)
I reckon the last point is where part of the frustration is. Getting the shield turned off is a good feature of that weapon.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Chris_CE » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:03 am

Here's my take on what to do with the EMP after seeing this thread, and discussing it on Skype:

  • "EMP" is now changed to "Virus", a new pickup essentially taking the EMP's place. An electromagnetic pulse pickup will no longer be in the game
  • Virus, as Kmac mentioned, still disables the player's shield but can also have one of a variety of effects on your car, such as:
    -Inverting left and right steering controls
    -Inverting acceleration and braking inputs
    -locking the accelerator, with no braking allowed
    -immediately forcing the player to use the pickups in their inventory (if none, the code will not refer to this)
    -flipping the camera to disorient the player
    -disables traction control, so the car slips and slides (similar to the freeze power-up from rollcage)
  • All cars in the race are affected by the Virus, but what happens to them and the duration of it is determined by race position
  • To let the player know what the virus is doing, there will be a HUD indicator for each type of effect, plus possibly a visual effect on the car. There will also be a lead-up time before the car is effected, so the player can prepare to react
  • Virus has new particle effects, and gets rid of the dome thing from the EMP effects.

I agree with others saying the EMP is dull and annoying. The biggest problem with it is that it slows people down forcefully, when a Virus pickup would keep them at speed, but possibly cause they to crash or bump into things, effectively slowing them down without directly doing it.

Slowing cars down unnaturally also creates problems for parts of track that require speed, like on SkyTrack
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby kingbeandip » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:23 pm

I think this looks great, but I would propose tweaking a couple things. 1) Locking the accelerator won't do much for most people because you can often do an entire race without letting go of the throttle, especially on low engine power. Instead, what if one of the EMP effects were to significantly increase power (as if they were boosting) and disable the brake, but at the same time reduce steering power to about half? 2) Also, I think inverting the steering controls and flipping the camera are too similar. Could we combine them, or get rid of the camera flipping? (I'm not a fan of the camera flipping because it doesn't it affects the player directly without affecting the car.)

Also, can the range of the virus be significantly reduced compared to the EMP? It didn't make sense to be hit with an EMP when your half the track away from the person who fired it.

All of that said, I think the idea is great, and I think I will enjoy the new virus implementation.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Cybruiser57Péter » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:30 am

So virus is it than, but the questions is: the virus is going to be a global effect or "else" like it's only hits those who is in front of you.

For example: 10 racers, your are at 7th position and you fire the virus, virus going to effect 1st-6th racers because they ahead of you, but ignore 8th-10th because you already pass them.
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The pissed locals are head enough and strike back.
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Queadah » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:35 pm

"Only in front" would be my understanding.

Concerning the virus idea, I'm only worried about consistency:
  • that a pickup would have varying effect (inverted steering or brake malfunctioning etc...), even with a color code, is a bit too bad when you can have multiple different pickups to do each of those effects separately.
  • virus would be a random plague more than a special kind of annoyance
  • there's a "predictability" factor that goes away, like "I don't know how to counter it yet cuz I don't know what the effect's gonna be". It's a bit lacking in specifics/identity
I'm all for testing this idea though: there's only 1 way to know if it works, and it is to test it :twisted:

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby WROB3L » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:14 pm

Then the screen effect should change too imo. On top of static it could screw a bit with the vision itself. Put some tv glitch filters and voila
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Chris_CE » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:19 pm

Internally, we're not entirely sold on the Virus replacing EMP, so just note that this is a discussion and not guaranteed to happen

One concern about implementing Virus is that is messes with the player's controls. Although many people on the forums seem to like that idea, we could have a slew of people who hate it

kingbeandip wrote:I think this looks great, but I would propose tweaking a couple things. 1) Locking the accelerator won't do much for most people because you can often do an entire race without letting go of the throttle, especially on low engine power. Instead, what if one of the EMP effects were to significantly increase power (as if they were boosting) and disable the brake, but at the same time reduce steering power to about half? 2) Also, I think inverting the steering controls and flipping the camera are too similar. Could we combine them, or get rid of the camera flipping? (I'm not a fan of the camera flipping because it doesn't it affects the player directly without affecting the car.)

Also, can the range of the virus be significantly reduced compared to the EMP? It didn't make sense to be hit with an EMP when your half the track away from the person who fired it.

1) Yeah, it could overdrive the vehicle, making it speed up and cause it to slightly shake (for visual feedback)
2) They're similar and they aren't. If they were split into two different virus effects then the player would need more skill to overcome them, I think, as they're never sure what they'll be hit with

The whole point of the EMP is to affect the racers leading the pack, so reducing the range would effectively help them most of the time, as racers in the back of the pack are the ones that pick up EMPs

Cybruiser57Péter wrote:So virus is it than, but the questions is: the virus is going to be a global effect or "else" like it's only hits those who is in front of you.

For example: 10 racers, your are at 7th position and you fire the virus, virus going to effect 1st-6th racers because they ahead of you, but ignore 8th-10th because you already pass them.

I like the idea of it only affecting those in front of you, as it's pretty overpowered as is. This will keep races even more tight if those in the back can keep catching up

Queadah wrote:Concerning the virus idea, I'm only worried about consistency:
  • that a pickup would have varying effect (inverted steering or brake malfunctioning etc...), even with a color code, is a bit too bad when you can have multiple different pickups to do each of those effects separately.
  • virus would be a random plague more than a special kind of annoyance
  • there's a "predictability" factor that goes away, like "I don't know how to counter it yet cuz I don't know what the effect's gonna be". It's a bit lacking in specifics/identity
I'm all for testing this idea though: there's only 1 way to know if it works, and it is to test it :twisted:

Each viral effect would need a different HUD indicator, then the player is able to identify it immediately and adapt. So, HUD indicator with steering wheel pops up, player has a second to see it, then the actual effect on the car kicks in

WROB3L wrote:Then the screen effect should change too imo. On top of static it could screw a bit with the vision itself. Put some tv glitch filters and voila

Keep in mind players with lower settings may not see screen effects, so we need to make it obvious on the car and/or HUD
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Queadah » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:14 pm

For the record, imo only the EMP's appearance needed to be more impressive.

Given both pulse push and EMP originate from the wheels, stacking order:
lvl1 = pulse push < lvl2 = ?Virus? < lvl3 = EMP

Thus the EMP is "rare" by design. Boom.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby The Sudden Silent » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 am

HUD effect need better visual that is 100% true
and car need electric effect
that virus is great idea its will change game play more better. Now EMP is only shutting engines and making game somehow boring/slow.

BAD OR GOOD IDEA???
if LV1 EMP will work like now, but new LV2 EMP would work like virus? that would made small changes but no need delete code.

or only easy mode would use normally EMP and then medium and hard or harder would use new virus

SMALL QUESTION
im interesting ask why electric effect removed on recent EMP, but earlier builds we have electric effect and its look cool.
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Queadah
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Queadah » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:41 pm

The Sudden Silent wrote:HUD effect need better visual that is 100% true
and car need electric effect

if LV1 EMP will work like now, but new LV2 EMP would work like virus? that would made small changes but no need delete code.

or only easy mode would use normally EMP and then medium and hard or harder would use new virus

I agree with something along those lines, yeah.
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Roughly.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:54 pm

The Sudden Silent wrote: im interesting ask why electric effect removed on recent EMP, but earlier builds we have electric effect and its look cool.

It was removed because it kept lagging behind the car for a reason we do not know. It will come back, if we keep the EMP
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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby TheOnLY » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:26 pm

I have always wondered why is the symbol of the EMP green? It doesn't help the user, it does harm to his opponents, which makes it a weapon and not a powerup.

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Re: Need suggestions for alternate EMP implementation

Postby DriftRacer14 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:24 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:How about literally stopping the car in place for few seconds? As in time stops. Maybe more possible than slowing time.


This reminds me of a combination of the "Time Warp" and "Stasis Beam" pickups in RC:S2.

Rollcage Stage II PSX Game Manual wrote:TIME WARP
The sands of time are falling... slowly... ever so slowly...
Release the Time Warp and your opponents will have their speed severely affected in swirling psychedelic haze. A Time Warp will only affect enemies in front of you and will slow them down to a greater extent the further in front they are.

POWERED UP TIME WARP
Power up and slow time down for everyone in the race, except yourself.

STASIS BEAM
The hardest weapon to use, but with the biggest effect.
A ground-hugging laser streaks from the front of your car, writhing along the circuit until it hits an indestructible object. Any car that the beam touches is blown into the air where it is put into a temporal limbo - otherwise known as "stasis".
While in this frozen state, the car can still be hit with weapons, but they won't take effect until the car is unfrozen about three to five seconds later.
Press the fire button to activate the Stasis Beam. It will take a little while for the weapon to charge before firing. However, if you hold the fire button during charge up then release it, you can determine the launch time. Delay firing and it'll go off in your pocket!

POWERED UP STASIS BEAM
Press the down directional button, to fire the stasis beam backwards.


:idea: Personally I feel that it'd be interesting to have options in the game to 'Allow Pickups from Rollcage' and 'Allow Pickups from Rollcage Stage II/Death Track Racing'. Maybe go more in depth with it and have a 'POWERUPS ALLOWED' page on per-event/per-tournament basis and have all the legacy pickups listed and allow the user to choose which ones they prefer. Obviously the pickups would behave identically to the old school ones, and perhaps use similar if not identical icons, but they would produce updated variants of their respective visual effects. Perhaps there would be a game mode where 'Legacy Pickups Only' or pickups from one game or the other were the only ones available. Maybe make 'Beat <X> Tournament in Legacy Mode' a Steam achieve or something.
I hate to say this seeing as I hate the infamous three letter concept with a passion, but someone has to play Devil's Advocate. Maybe implement this as DLC and have all the old-school [but visually remastered] tracks and such included in "Rollcage" and "Rollcage Stage II" DLC packages.
OK, tell it to me straight... in Rollcage Stage II for the PS1... was Winter Wonderland II even possible to Gold Medal...? :cry:

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