Nitro boost ability

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Queadah
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Nitro boost ability

Postby Queadah » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:44 pm

Not really a weapon or powerup, but I thought we'd all compile ideas here to make it better.
I'm listing ideas I saw or had that I think are worth it:
  • nitro doesn't auto recharge until it is depleted completely
    This could indeed avoid spamming it incessantly, your stock recharge to its fullest when fully used 1st.
  • nitro recharges on weapon hit
    I'd reckon an amount based on "ultimate mode" points. This way with a gattler, each bullet ups your stock.
    • Only problem with that is when you're too far behind
    • when in 1st, you wouldn't hit anyone... except when backward shooting (unless we make it so it doesn't count)
  • max nitro is position dependent
    The idea I like best viewtopic.php?f=21&p=18359#p18358
    I flipped this every which way, and I think it makes the nitro precisely a catchup item.
    Put a cap on max nitro: the more you are on the lead, the less you have available nitro (smaller bar).
  • nitro recharges the same rate for everyone
    Works with the cap idea above since leaders have less nitro to go with anyway
  • nitro has the same effectiveness for everyone
    Also works with the cap idea
  • nitro UI doesn't blink when full
    It's a distraction. I work everyday with complex UI and blinking stuff are punctual reminders. Blinking red for warnings.
    It worked best to have the full gauge be steady green imo.
I'm not a fan of using nitro only in one go/that it should all go with one press of the button.
Choosing to use it in small bursts should be possible, like right now.

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Re: Nitro boost ability

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:59 am

Queadah wrote:Not really a weapon or powerup, but I thought we'd all compile ideas here to make it better.
I'm listing ideas I saw or had that I think are worth it:
  • nitro doesn't auto recharge until it is depleted completely
    This could indeed avoid spamming it incessantly, your stock recharge to its fullest when fully used 1st.

I agree spamming it currently takes the focus away from the race.. Also, I keep myself constantly checking the gauge, I always feel the urge to use the boost when it's full to avoid wasting boost resources. It distracts me a lot from the race.

However, I think your solution would be very counter intuitive. Sometimes it will auto recharge, sometimes it won't.. And it will encourage people to use their boost even if they don't want to, because if they don't do it they won't gain any.


Queadah wrote:
  • nitro recharges on weapon hit
    I'd reckon an amount based on "ultimate mode" points. This way with a gattler, each bullet ups your stock.
    • Only problem with that is when you're too far behind
    • when in 1st, you wouldn't hit anyone... except when backward shooting (unless we make it so it doesn't count)
  • max nitro is position dependent

  • I'm not fond of the idea. Whenever someone shoots you, the shooter would get extra boost ? That would be even more punishing for the victim than it is now.

    Queadah wrote:The idea I like best viewtopic.php?f=21&p=18359#p18358
    I flipped this every which way, and I think it makes the nitro precisely a catchup item.
    Queadah wrote:Kewl. I like the new ability in spirit: an active catch up assist. Though,

    One scenario:
    • player in last
    • crawls back to 1st with full nitro gauge
    • ends in 1st with it:
      • UI feedback confusion ("how is the feature telling me it's gradually more helping when in last?")
      • race packing potentially less effective
    Why?
    • nitro main use = in medium to short burst (as it requires straights/no obst)
    • = leaders don't care about lower recharge rate (to a degree) since nitro is used in bursts, effectively keeping their available nitro full
    • = nitro purpose self-defeated

    Note: effectiveness of nitro depending on place seems mitigated for the same reason.
    • Shouldn't nitro quality remain consistent since there's no feedback telling the player how and when his nitro is getting "adjusted"?
    • However nitro quantity can be altered, as a cap on nitro based on place can be presented to the player (UI feedback)
    New scenario
    • player in last
    • crawls back to 1st
    • nitro gauge gets smaller (cut) with every place gained (and vice versa - more nitro when in last)
    • = catch up purpose achieved WITHOUT any tweaks in varying rates and effectiveness (impossible to materialize to the player) = less balancing nightmare
    Alternatively, the gauge could be scaled (instead of cut - quantity not affected) to let players know their nitro is affected based on place.

    Put a cap on max nitro: the more you are on the lead, the less you have available nitro (smaller bar).

    I disagree about leaders always having their bar full. Especially since they have a lower recharge rate, it will deplete more often than the others.
    I really don't see where the problem is

    As for making Nitro Boost gain same for everyone, but having the leader able to store a larger quantity, I don't know what's the point of it. In my opinion being able to store a larger quantity isn't going to help anyone - in the end you're supposed to use the Nitro often enough so that your Nitro bar is never full. In the few single player races i've played, my nitro bar was never (or almost) full.

    Queadah wrote:
    • nitro recharges the same rate for everyone
      Works with the cap idea above since leaders have less nitro to go with anyway
    • nitro has the same effectiveness for everyone
      Also works with the cap idea

    It already has the same effectiveness for everyone (if i understand correctly)

    Same rate for everyone i don't know. I don't see what's the harm in having those in the back recharge their bar faster. It should help them join the pack.

    Queadah wrote:[*]nitro UI doesn't blink when full
    It's a distraction. I work everyday with complex UI and blinking stuff are punctual reminders. Blinking red for warnings.
    It worked best to have the full gauge be steady green imo.

    The only gripe I have with the UI is that it's not noticeable enough. I would just delete the "reset" bar (i don't really see the use of it, since you already have the "red box" feedback), and replace it by the boost bar. It's easier to look on the top than having to look bottom right.

    Queadah wrote:I'm not a fan of using nitro only in one go/that it should all go with one press of the button.
    Choosing to use it in small bursts should be possible, like right now.

    On the contrary, I'd like to have it all go with one button press. It would act a bit like Rollcage Stage 2's boost - helping you to accelerate over a short period of time.

    On a side note, right now I don't think the Boost is helping beginners at all - a bit like Catchup, it encourages them to go faster, only to crash at the next turn. On the hands of an experienced player, it will help him though.

    Also right now all my focus is drained by the management of the Turbo bar. I never know how much I have left and i have to let my eyes off the road to see it, but also there's the fact that at times i will use Boost even if i don't want to, because i don't want boost to be wasted.

    I think it would be more interesting if you would gain an acceleration/speed advantage as long as your nitro bar is full. It would encourage keeping it full, thus discouraging spamming it - and that way, people would only use the boost when they really need it (not just to increase their "boost efficiency")

    Another idea would be to have it work like a mini-Firestorm on single-press, something like what Ignition had : https://youtu.be/f2lajsZt4Hg?t=1m8s
    (it's the yellow bar on the right - whenever it's full, you have a "tick" sound that lets you know it's full, and you press a single button one time to release it. In GRIP, it could give you an effect of a mini-Firestorm)
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby HikikomoriGamer » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:53 pm

    potterman28wxcv wrote:Also right now all my focus is drained by the management of the Turbo bar. I never know how much I have left and i have to let my eyes off the road to see it, but also there's the fact that at times i will use Boost even if i don't want to, because i don't want boost to be wasted.


    This is exactly what I feel and it sucks to have to worry about something constantly. We already have to worry about a lot of things happening in the race right? :)

    How about make special places in the track glow and give you a boost when you are in the last positions? Like you don't need to worry about that damn bar all times and you just need to look for flashing places on the track! At least we eliminate one button use and it will be all dependent on the player skill to catch up but still good for ppl that are not great at the game cause the devs would put this boost in places that anyone can manage to gain speed and not fly off the track. You could even get two types! a green one that is easy or a red one that is difficult but you gain more boost! You could even program random places for it to appear in the same track!
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Rastaman » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:48 am

    I feel that the nitro ability should be either removed in favour of speed pads, or restricted to the speedster/light class.

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby potterman28wxcv » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:17 am

    HikikomoriGamer wrote:
    potterman28wxcv wrote:Also right now all my focus is drained by the management of the Turbo bar. I never know how much I have left and i have to let my eyes off the road to see it, but also there's the fact that at times i will use Boost even if i don't want to, because i don't want boost to be wasted.


    This is exactly what I feel and it sucks to have to worry about something constantly. We already have to worry about a lot of things happening in the race right? :)

    How about make special places in the track glow and give you a boost when you are in the last positions? Like you don't need to worry about that damn bar all times and you just need to look for flashing places on the track! At least we eliminate one button use and it will be all dependent on the player skill to catch up but still good for ppl that are not great at the game cause the devs would put this boost in places that anyone can manage to gain speed and not fly off the track. You could even get two types! a green one that is easy or a red one that is difficult but you gain more boost! You could even program random places for it to appear in the same track!

    Actually in Quantum Rush there was this Blue place where you could fill your energy bar, and then use your energy for boosting
    https://youtu.be/1t5uUxWWwAg?t=9m57s
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby HikikomoriGamer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:50 pm

    Yeah Its kind of like F-Zero!

    But it's like I said the boost ability is a great idea cause for me it eliminates the catch up assist in the background that I hate for some reason. Now players are the catch up assist but the only way to go fast and catch up is using it properly. The nice thing about it being optional is that if you don't feel comfortable with a high speed in a certain place you can avoid a crash!

    But I still think that special speed pads for ppl behind forcing you to try new locations that you never try is pretty nice cause it's still difficult but there is no need to worry about cool downs and another button but that can be just me hating the cool down!

    Of course the game could just play a "boooo" noise and all normal speed pads could give you more boost :)
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby potterman28wxcv » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:56 am

    After playing some more, and getting used to it, I think it's quite good. There's only the bar who needs to be more visible, but other than that, spamming it becomes almost natural, and you don't think about it too much.
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby twisted » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:49 am

    The nitro boost should be removed IMO for the following reasons:

    - It makes the game easier
    - It will confuse newcomers to have a boost powerup as well as a permanent one from different UI, specially since it's regenerating only under certain circumstances.
    - It distract from the race and we'll have no choice but to use it in multiplayer to be competitive.

    I think it's a mistake from a design standpoint to have incorporated a permanent boost and just a cheap trick to keep the pack of cars together. The best way to get around this would be to add an adaptative AI for lower difficulty levels where the AI slow down when you crash to help you move ahead of the pack. It's how every other games do it.

    If we're about to keep it, please make the boost gauge a shared energy bar instead, that is used for the boost as well as the jump ability and any other regenerating abilities we might get. Also if we keep it, get rid of the boost powerup and make the permanent boost as fast as the powerup one, but more slower to regenerate.

    All in all, I really don't like the permanent regenerating boost at all, just the idea of having two types of boosts from different menus... it feels tacked on to fix an issue I didn't had and it is distracting and it just makes the game easier.
    Last edited by twisted on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby TheOnLY » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:58 am

    One problem with the nitro is the charging rate being too high, but this will probably change soon, so I wont go into it any further.

    My main problem with nitro is that players in front charge faster. This gives players overtaking an advantage because they were able to charge more nitro than the player they overtake. The one being overtaken on the other hand cant keep up with the one overtaking him simply because the overtaking player could build up nitro and can now use it to get a bigger lead while he has to wait until the advantage neutralizes over time.

    I'd rather like to see the same charging rate, but different consuming rates. Why?
    • It has the exact same result in therms of nitro availability (the one in front can use it less), while the advantage is always at the lower placed player immediately as opposed to it changing over time.
    • Players in front can use less nitro in one go since they have the amount of nitro, but use it faster. This would force leading players to use it more frequently in short bursts spread out across the entire track while less experienced players can use it a place they are comfortable (for example over the entire length of a long straight) while still not wasting nitro because their gauge is full.

    twisted wrote:The nitro boost should be removed IMO for the following reasons:
    - It makes the game easier

    How can a ability that is available for every player, including bots, make a game easier? Literally every enemy can use it too.
    twisted wrote:I think it's a mistake from a design standpoint to have incorporated a permanent boost and just a cheap trick to keep the pack of cars together. The best way to get around this would be to add an adaptative AI for lower difficulty levels where the AI slow down when you crash to help you move ahead of the pack. It's how every other games do it.

    It is not about races vs AI. It is about multi player races.They are boring especially for the players on both ends of the skill spectrum. Very good players rarely see other players because they easily outrun most of the other players, while less experienced players are too far behind. A rubber banding mechanism is needed to make races more close and thous interesting and the nitro is way better tool for that than catch up is.

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby HikikomoriGamer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:16 pm

    potterman28wxcv wrote:After playing some more, and getting used to it, I think it's quite good. There's only the bar who needs to be more visible, but other than that, spamming it becomes almost natural, and you don't think about it too much.


    Yeah I was thinking the same thing while playing in the same room as you and losing a lot :)

    But just because we adapted does not mean it is good! Time will tell is the only thing I can say now.
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Queadah » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:46 am

    potterman28wxcv wrote:I disagree about leaders always having their bar full. Especially since they have a lower recharge rate, it will deplete more often than the others.
    I really don't see where the problem is

    We're together on the spamming and nitro taking focus, but here I meant the opposite!
    Leaders should have LESS of a bar. It's good enough they are in the lead: rate difference should disappear and nitro gauges max should be lower the further you're in the lead.
    potterman28wxcv wrote:As for making Nitro Boost gain same for everyone, but having the leader able to store a larger quantity, I don't know what's the point of it.

    Leader able to store LESS. I meant the opposite again X)

    potterman28wxcv wrote:Same rate for everyone i don't know. I don't see what's the harm in having those in the back recharge their bar faster. It should help them join the pack.

    Nitro bar size changing dependent on place, you don't need to tweak for rate (and effectiveness), and you're telling the players: "see, you're in the back, but we're giving you this edge over the leaders" with a visual clue, a feedback, which imo, is good practice (any interaction needs one, whether it is front end web UI designing, physical switches turned ON or OFF, etc...)

    I don't have it in me to discuss all the points TheOnly, Twisted and HikikomoriGamer made, we already had these arguments on Skype with Broscar and it drained me. I'm giving up X)

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby twisted » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:36 am

    Just to reiterate on the subject, I was against it first but I think the nitro boost has grown up on me, I like it and think Chris and team have made the right choice to implement it!

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Chris_CE » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:55 pm

    Now that it's more balanced, it certainly helps keep racers competing. And it's always fun to go fast
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Rafaam » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:32 am

    So basicly you're saying that they should nerf nitro in general, but buff it for the ones behind? I agree with everything you said, but this:"max nitro is position dependent". I feel like that would make comebacks way too easy, game shouldn't punish good players, that got infront imho.
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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby VooDooQky » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:52 pm

    Some feedback for Boost:

    - The screen shaking effect under boosting is great, i'd tweak it for a bit smaller amplitude, on a higher frequency, and give it a little bit of extra FOV extension, while under effect, for an immersive speeding feeling.

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Queadah » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:05 pm

    +1

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    Re: Nitro boost ability

    Postby Chris_CE » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:52 pm

    +1
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