Pick-up stacking

From turbos to missiles, discuss Grip's pick-ups here
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Ryu Makkuro
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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:27 pm

Stacking is a must for the game. You can give an option to disable that in the race menu, so those that don't like it won't use it. But it adds a lot of depth to the gameplay and makes it a lot more interesting.

As to the issue of the leader stacking... true, but the last place usually also will have an easier time stacking and since last place (when there are at least 6 players) gets Assassins almost insta-mode, stacking them up to a point where the 1st player will be blown into the outer space regardless of the level of his shield is essentially a perfect counter for that. I honestly think that stacking would help with the issue of 1st player running away, rather than making it worse.

Naturally the pickups will have to be balanced accordingly, so it's worth waiting when you have an opportunity, but not so much that you won't use it when you have someone in front of you waiting to be blown away. That said it shouldn't be as difficult to balance as some other things, namely...

... 3rd pickup slot. That is just a no-no, since pickup stealing is already an issue and the main reason why 1st player can actually run away. If you have 3 pickup slots, add to that stacking and you have potential of taking 6 pickups without dropping a single one. That's pretty much the amount of pickups most people get on average on a whole lap. With 2, you can only steal 4 pickups and the chances you'll even be able to steal them are lower, since you can only have 2 different pickups, not 3. So we have an exponential growth here, not linear.

So it's either 3rd pickup slot on all cars or pickups stacking. But with the current amount of pickups on the track aka barely having a single one when having another player nearby, 3rd pickup slot could only strengthen the "1st player running away" issue without providing any countermeasure. Currently pretty much the only time you really wish you had a 3rd pickup slot is when you're... 1st.
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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:55 am

I'll quote a commenter from Steam (http://steamcommunity.com/app/396900/di ... 9453690102)
Tyrian Mollusk wrote:If you're devoting two buttons to powerups, you can easily have three carry slots instead of two, and increase the interaction depth

"three carry slots instead of two"... "Increase the interaction depth"... what this man said! I can't seem to anticipate a "pickup stealing" effect: pickups on maps can be increased in number as a last resort; just enough to mitigate that argument.

I'll re-state my position here (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3728), that if the Tank only can benefit from a "buffer" slot and the rest is balanced with other class abilities, it would make for some interesting testing at least. 3 slots for all class... I dunno... haven't given it thought yet.

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How to Upgrade Pickups

Postby kingbeandip » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:11 pm

merged topics (-Chris)

I know that upgrading pickups is a planned feature, but I am not clear on how this will be done. Either 1) it will be done with pickup stacking, or 2) as a vehicle upgrade in career mode. Or 3) it could be both (i.e. upgrade your vehicle in career mode to unlock stacking for a given pickup). Each method has its pros and cons.

OPTION 1 - Pickup Stacking:
    Pros:
    • Adds in-race strategy (do I use my item now or try to stack it?)
    • All pickups are available at the start of the game
    Cons:
    • Race leaders will hog more pickups (especially at the beginning of the race)
    • More complicated and/or confusing, especially for new players
    • Progression through career mode may be less meaningful

OPTION 2 - Vehicle Upgrades (in Career Mode):
    Pros:
    • More long-term strategy (do I upgrade a weapon or my engine? do I upgrade offensively or defensively?)
    • Sense of accomplishment when you can start using the more powerful pickups
    • New players will not be confronted with a complicated pickup system
    • Players will be able to spend time with the basic versions of the pickups and become familiar with them
    • Advanced pickups will only be used by more experienced players
    • Sometimes stacking may not makes sense (stacking a speed boost would make you go, um, faster?... but not as fast as two separate boosts?...)
    • No pickup hogging
    Cons:
    • Less strategy available in-race
    • Basic versions of pickups are unavailable after upgrading
    • High levels of play will only have powerful pickups (it doesn't make sense to have everybody nuking people all the time)

OPTION 3 - Unlock Pickup Stacking with Vehicle Upgrades (in Career Mode):
    Pros:
    • Preserves in-race strategy (do I use my item now or try to stack it?)
    • Preserves long-term strategy (do I upgrade a weapon or my engine? do I upgrade offensively or defensively?)
    • Sense of accomplishment when you can start using the more powerful pickups
    • New players will not be confronted with a complicated pickup system
    • Players will be able to spend time with the basic versions of the pickups and become familiar with them
    • Advanced pickups will only be used by more experienced players, who will not be confused or overwhelmed by pickup stacking
    • Basic versions of pickups are still available after upgrading
    Cons:
    • Race leaders can hog all the pickups

I don't know if this has already been decided, but I vote for option 3.

Hopefully I didn't forget anything significant. If I did, I can add it to the list.

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:04 am

Ok, I have this idea for stacking power boosts that I think could be REALLY interesting (that is vaguely related to viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3753). I think stacking them beyond 2 doesn't work (3x boosting would break everything) which is why I suggest:

TELEPORT to a point in your line of sight!
  • stack 3 speed boosts
  • like the targeting system, you have a set of options to cycle through (using the already existing respawn points as "hooks")
  • trigger it like a rocket
  • cars disappears in a flash
  • camera super-fastly zooms to your selected location
  • car respawns there with the speed you previously had!

This way, you build on an existing mechanics (the respawn) but make it a teleport with the FX and camera play!!!
Much like the movie Jumper or the Final Fantazy XV Kingslaive. Wow factor off the charts guaranteed.

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:57 pm

Topics merged
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Re: How to Upgrade Pickups

Postby Queadah » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:08 pm

Ooops, I forgot I meant to answer to this
kingbeandip wrote:OPTION 3 - Unlock Pickup Stacking with Vehicle Upgrades (in Career Mode)

Clever analyzing of options kingbeandip.
+1 on OPTION 3, absolutely:
  • vehicle upgrades locked away with career (new front/rear etc...)
An argument could be make to leave stacking available from the get go, but you're right that unlocking it in career provides a feeling of progression and doesn't overwhelm the players. Only drawback is:
  • a MP player would have to play career first to unlock the full game's potential
This isn't entirely bad however and can be seen as an advantage (to force player into the campaign mode that would progress like a tutorial)

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Re: How to Upgrade Pickups

Postby kingbeandip » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:06 pm

Queadah wrote:Only drawback is:
  • a MP player would have to play career first to unlock the full game's potential
This isn't entirely bad however and can be seen as an advantage (to force player into the campaign mode that would progress like a tutorial)


I didn't think of that. But if career were separate from online play, when online the game could just use fully upgraded cars. Also, this issue already exists because there is an upgrade system planned, and it would not be fair to play online against someone with a fully upgraded engine, for example. Or you can just ignore that problem and throw everyone in the race together regardless of their career progression...

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby XT3 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:44 am

STacking like the old Lego Racer game? I get it, I do like the idea that you could stack the powerups but in Lego racers you needed to pick up a upgrade power up in order to upgrade the power pick ups. Why not have the same kind of idea?

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:16 am

XT3 wrote:in Lego racers you needed to pick up a upgrade power up in order to upgrade the power pick ups. Why not have the same kind of idea?

I see too many downfalls to this:
  • a specific upgrade powerup takes away a chance to have a regular pickup to shoot/defend = less dynamic
  • it takes a slot you can't trigger on its own when our cars currently have only 2:
    you'd have to wait to catch an upgrade-able powerup
  • when all your pickup slots are empty, catching an "upgrade pickup" is useless (you'd have to code that scenario away)
  • let's say the upgrade powerup doesn't transit in a slot:
    _you have 2 different weapons in a slot, which one gets the upgrade?
    _you have 1 weapon and it automatically upgrades. What if you wanted to use the lvl1 weapon instead?
All in all, imo this mechanic is not suited to GRIP. Stacking is waaaay more "natural":
  • grab only regular pickups = small amount of "base weapon" = identity = you care
  • use them independently or stack the twins you have IF you so wish = no waste & choice

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby playabot » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:17 pm

My only concern with the weapon stacking feature is that I don't want to see the function of the weapon become too different from its initial function. i.e. my reliable weapon now becomes one that I need to target (current implimentation of the force push weapon) or one that is less effective in this situation or one that has an annoying side effect that messes with its timing, like now I get a boost when I use this weapon as well as a shield, I'm about to get hit but a missile but can’t use the shield because I'm also going to be boosted into a ravine...

I would prefer a customisable weapon loadout be implimented with weapons that incrimentally get upgraded features (will make a new topic to go into this though...)

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby twisted » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:52 am

I have an idea for mine stacking where at the last level, the player could launch a device that open in the air and drop multiple deploying mines on parachutes. It would be cool looking and create the ultimate minefield of destruction. :D

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Chris_CE » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:10 pm

playabot wrote:My only concern with the weapon stacking feature is that I don't want to see the function of the weapon become too different from its initial function. i.e. my reliable weapon now becomes one that I need to target (current implimentation of the force push weapon) or one that is less effective in this situation or one that has an annoying side effect that messes with its timing, like now I get a boost when I use this weapon as well as a shield, I'm about to get hit but a missile but can’t use the shield because I'm also going to be boosted into a ravine...

I would prefer a customisable weapon loadout be implimented with weapons that incrimentally get upgraded features (will make a new topic to go into this though...)

This is why the current implementation is charging, not stacking. Holding the input gets you the charged up version along with a speed penalty for balance. It's the first implementation of this, and very rough though
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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:23 am

Standard disclaimer: there's no secret I'm in the stacking camp.

I took the time to read the entirety of playbot post on the "weapon upgrade" thread btw (whole other topic). As for playbot concern:
  • Why would a lvl 2 speedboost be anything than a stronger boost?
  • Why would a lvl 2 scorpion be anything than a dual/stronger scorpion ?
  • ...and I could go on.
Ofc it wouldn't be any other way. There was even an implementation of dual scorpion (kind of) at some point.

Charging vs stacking:
Charge
  • Requires visual feedback to tell you what's happening (the new stuff you're having by holding input).
  • You have direct access to another firing mode.
  • No conditions to meet.
  • If one of them is plain better, the other won't be used, or you'd have to adjust the speed penalty case by case
  • You get twice the same powerup = that's just more flavour of the same thing for you
  • "Hold" input is already taken. Later if we wanted to, you can't drop a powerup doing that
Stack:
  • Visual feedback pre-exists: a slot clears as two powerups fuse into one (making another), or the same but with a lvl indication
  • You have to collect a similar pickup to stack = you actually have to do something (collect) to unlock a stacking possibility
  • Having 2 similar powerups = you can make something out if it
  • It frees a slot when stacking, leaving the possibility, if wanted, to increase infinitely stacking lvl as long as you pick the same powerup multiple times in a row
  • "Hold" could be used on the 2 similar powerups you have to fuse them: you still can use "hold" on one of them drop it (for instance)
Open to test whatever, but I have a feeling this is going to be less fun (just hold input and that's it).

RIP stacking mechanics - 201? - 201?, we never got to know you

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Last edited by Queadah on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Similii » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:44 pm

I agree with Queadah on this one, I know holding is at early state right now and need balancing but that's a bit too OP as Queadah said, or you could balance it by fuse holding and stacking. What I mean by that, is having two items in your slots, and holding the two buttons would allow you to have access to the level 2 of the pick-up you have
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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby WROB3L » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:45 pm

Stacking ftw!
FOR THE RAZIELIM!

And with a pot of F*ckedUppery
Powerful Cthulhu created me :twisted:

One of the first players in Image 3rd or 4th. I dont remember xD

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby playabot » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:36 am

[quote="Queadah"]Standard disclaimer: there's no secret I'm

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Queadah, these icons are awesome. I think you should have a shot at the disrupters icon... for me it’s not quite consistent with the others in the game. What do you think?

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:33 pm

it's the RAM raider that looks unfinished ^^
I'm... I dunno man, I feel like I'm too loud in these parts. I suggest too much.
Why not though. Disruptor is not my fav icon tbh (it's the machine gun! So much dank), so... yeah why not...

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:42 am

Disruptor and Ramraider icons are temporary. If you want to give them a shot, by all means ;)
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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby maniamaster » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:53 am

I personally adore the disruptor icon.

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Re: Pick-up stacking

Postby Queadah » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:48 pm

At least the fading on the small "waves" looks a bit odd. For an icon, it stands weirdly from the others


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