Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Discuss anything related to GRIP's proposed game modes
User avatar
Chris_CE
Grip Developer
Grip Developer
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:44 pm
Contact:

Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Chris_CE » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:43 am

We've brainstormed some ideas for a "complete" or "ultimate" racing mode, which would not just be about who wins, but instead about who gets the most amount of points by the end.

This mode would be great for online play, as it gives all players a chance to get points and have fun. The points will go towards rank and cosmetic items (though the way our cosmetics will work online isn't fully fleshed out yet)

Potential factors of getting points in this mode include:
  • Final Position
  • Position each Lap
  • Average Speed
  • Airtime
  • Damage Dealt
  • Damage Prevented
  • Side Targets
  • Collectibles
  • Supply crates
  • ?
I've got a full breakdown of the points system with their values in this spreadsheet

Please give it a look and comment with any feedback or ideas you have, and we'll get this mode locked down ;)

EDIT: I know there have been other threads with talk about a mode like this, but I don't have the time to sift through everything and find your posts, so if you wanted to reiterate what you've said in past threads here, that would be great
Game Director
GRIP

User avatar
Chris_CE
Grip Developer
Grip Developer
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Chris_CE » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:46 am

Keep in mind that pickup balancing is still being worked on, so don't let the current implementation affect the way you think about ultimate racing
Game Director
GRIP

User avatar
Shivaxi
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:55 pm
Location: somewhere in Florida
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Shivaxi » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:25 pm

Nice, reminds me of Destruction Derby 2 how that was based on a point system rather than who came in first. Of course back in 1996, it was more limited to purely how you wiped out the other cars, either spining them out, flipping them over, full 180 or full 360...the harder you smashed the more points :P

I like the ideas for the point systems so far for GRIP, perhaps something along the lines of what DD2 did in the sense of like, instead of JUST "damage dealt" how but some form of measurement to measure much you set back another player, running them off the road via a weapon or mine or just ramming them, and causing them to crash, lose a ton of speed, or even lose positions in the race. That would be nice =)

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:01 pm

You might want to add another set of points for those who do the best laps.
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

User avatar
KazzyMac
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:03 pm
Location: North Lincolnshire, Ye Olde Englande
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Points for barrel rolls? :P

(Nah)

It sounds like a good list (and a good upgrade from TOTAL Racing in Stage II). I'm a little uncertain about the airtime one, because even if less-skilled players can take advantage of it, it could probably be something that could eventually be gamed by better players (or trolls just intentionally jumping off of everything) unless the points attributed to playing well can outweigh the gains by being -intentionally- crap. :x


Also you should add a score for destroying other competitors (for Arena and when car elimination is turned on) and possibly one for surviving during an Elmination event.? There could maybe be some more complex 'secret' scores (i.e. using an EMP to disable someone's shield and then rocket them whilst they're vulnerable?, dropping a billboard/destructible asset on somebody? Though those would probably have to come much later if ever.)
Image

Look at the road-holding on these babies. Clarkson would cream himself. :ugeek:

Broscar, your car skin is called Tropical. ; )

User avatar
Ryu Makkuro
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:46 pm
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:20 pm

I do believe it can be a good mode for casual online play, but when it comes to competitive side... well, it's a racing game in the end. And we racers aim to be the fastest, not the... "pointiest". Still, definitely something for those that want something else once in a while.

With that in mind, you might add some special objectives for each track, aka each of those objectives will appear only on the corresponding tracks. Since competitive side won't be an issue, it doesn't have to be brutally optimised, and it can provide some very interesting tactics. Also, that objective can only be achieved once, aka once someone gets it, no one can get it. Preferably bound to some huge destruction moments, or insane stuff, like outpacing an Assassin missile for 10 seconds :D Generally something that will have you prepare for it, so it's a risky maneuver.

KazzyMac wrote:I'm a little uncertain about the airtime one, because even if less-skilled players can take advantage of it, it could probably be something that could eventually be gamed by better players (or trolls just intentionally jumping off of everything) unless the points attributed to playing well can outweigh the gains by being -intentionally- crap. :x

Simple solution here. Make it not purely "time" based, but more speed wise as well. So not only the longer you are, but at a higher speed you are, the more points... and most importantly, only perfect landing will "bank" the points. So if you'll be jumping all the time without landing properly, no points for you. And the landing will seriously have to be close to perfection to be counted.
Image

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Queadah » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:55 pm

KazzyMac wrote:Points for barrel rolls? :P

(Nah)

I'm calling it. Points for the barrel rolls that you land (as Ryu said).
  • More tricky to achieve than just air time (you add it on top), not too much air control atm plus not that frequent anyway
  • You encourage racers to risk their position to other racers (e.g. exiting tunnels upside down with an angle) , thus redistributing the cards.
  • You ease the point gap for a racer that landed several rolls after getting blown up.
  • You introduce a "chance" factor
Attributed points per roll should be fairly low:
  • seeing the spreadsheet, I'd say +5pts
  • It's more than 1 bullet of raptor
  • and equivalent to 1 sec of air time
  • which is coherent if you hit a rock and do 1 roll (5pts for air time + 5pts for the roll) as it doubles the point amount compared to a regular 1sec jump

Edit: tl;dr this ain't Tony Hawk but points for style (rolls) should be a thing (? ^^)
Last edited by Queadah on Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:27 pm, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
VooDooQky
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:10 pm

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby VooDooQky » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:35 pm

Combos and combo breakers maybe?

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Queadah » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:47 pm

+1 Could be cool if well balanced.

At least x2 and x3 multipliers for the successful use of lvl2 and lvl3 stacked weapons respectively.

Also, destroyed mines ? (Meh, scratch that, it might just fall in the damage-done category)
Last edited by Queadah on Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby potterman28wxcv » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:48 pm

KazzyMac wrote:There could maybe be some more complex 'secret' scores (i.e. using an EMP to disable someone's shield and then rocket them whilst they're vulnerable?, dropping a billboard/destructible asset on somebody? Though those would probably have to come much later if ever.)

I would prefer simple mechanisms rather than something complex. I mean, especially as the number of weapons will grow, the number of possible "race achievement" awarding points will grow very fast. You could have "EMP then rocket", but also something for "double rocket", or something for "rocket, then boost to overtake him".. If you really want to be creative, you have a tons of possibility. But I don't think it's a good thing - it would be more messy than actually rewarding in my opinion.

Besides, EMP + rocket, well you already get the shield destroyed bonus + scorpion bonus, would you really need another bonus for the combo ? It is a bit redundant.
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

TheOnLY
Early Supporter 4
Early Supporter 4
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:23 am

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby TheOnLY » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:15 am

Close call:
Pass a mine very close, almost detonating it.
Highest Topspeed:
Topspeed/2 awarded as points to the fastest player.
Reverse:
Distance driven backwards.
Mid-air hits:
Shooting an enemy, that does not touch the ground the moment he gets hit.

I think that things like avarege speed od distance should not be awarded a certain number of points from speed X to speed Y, but rather use a multiplier or divider. Same for distances.
Also airtime could be distance traveled not touching the ground instead.

User avatar
VooDooQky
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:10 pm

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby VooDooQky » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:46 pm

Yea, but if distance traveled gets counted then everyone just gets YOLO flyoffs and noone cares where or how just one lands. Jumps should be executed properly to count.

May I add:

Top Gun:
2 missiles / 1 missile + 1 gattler (no idea how much rounds does it shoot, but maybe for half of them gets connected) hit the target, which were launched airborne.

User avatar
tjgcrush
#1 Tester
#1 Tester
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:09 pm
Location: The Eternal Highway
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby tjgcrush » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:26 am

im diggin this i could give this a try if it comes out
And with his chrome V8 toys
Immortan Joe created the WarBoys
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIyRXvHmXxo
Image

User avatar
yellowquiet
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:58 pm
Location: Yes

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby yellowquiet » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:11 pm

Sounds good to me. Would need to be put to the test of course.
I didn't even know what was in the splatter pack before I bought it.

User avatar
tjgcrush
#1 Tester
#1 Tester
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:09 pm
Location: The Eternal Highway
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby tjgcrush » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:01 pm

i like the sound of a special test course to practice all of these things
And with his chrome V8 toys
Immortan Joe created the WarBoys
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIyRXvHmXxo
Image

User avatar
Chris_CE
Grip Developer
Grip Developer
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:19 pm

Shivaxi wrote:instead of JUST "damage dealt" how but some form of measurement to measure much you set back another player, running them off the road via a weapon or mine or just ramming them, and causing them to crash, lose a ton of speed, or even lose positions in the race

This is a good idea, though harder to acquire the data

potterman28wxcv wrote:You might want to add another set of points for those who do the best laps.

will do
KazzyMac wrote:I'm a little uncertain about the airtime one, because even if less-skilled players can take advantage of it, it could probably be something that could eventually be gamed by better players (or trolls just intentionally jumping off of everything) unless the points attributed to playing well can outweigh the gains by being -intentionally- crap. :x

Also you should add a score for destroying other competitors (for Arena and when car elimination is turned on) and possibly one for surviving during an Elmination event.? There could maybe be some more complex 'secret' scores (i.e. using an EMP to disable someone's shield and then rocket them whilst they're vulnerable?, dropping a billboard/destructible asset on somebody? Though those would probably have to come much later if ever.)

Yeah being airborne is detrimental to progressing in the race usually, so I can't see good players exploiting it unless they want to lose their place. It's mainly to give players who flip off everything some more points and sense of achievement

Indeed we could add more secretive ways to get points later, but Elimination mode is an entirely different mode and not related to this mode (ex. player chooses "Race" game type, then one of it's subsequent modes (normal, ultimate/battle, elimination, time trial)
Game Director
GRIP

User avatar
Chris_CE
Grip Developer
Grip Developer
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:29 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:I do believe it can be a good mode for casual online play, but when it comes to competitive side... well, it's a racing game in the end. And we racers aim to be the fastest, not the... "pointiest". Still, definitely something for those that want something else once in a while.

With that in mind, you might add some special objectives for each track, aka each of those objectives will appear only on the corresponding tracks. Since competitive side won't be an issue, it doesn't have to be brutally optimised, and it can provide some very interesting tactics. Also, that objective can only be achieved once, aka once someone gets it, no one can get it. Preferably bound to some huge destruction moments, or insane stuff, like outpacing an Assassin missile for 10 seconds :D Generally something that will have you prepare for it, so it's a risky maneuver.

I disagree that this mode can't be competitive. For one, I'd rather play this mode than normal race because it's well rounded, and adds more reason explore every gameplay facet of the game. And I could see myself caring about it online. Imagine rocket league only gave points for goals and nothing else. Not a perfect example, but you get the idea.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:I'm a little uncertain about the airtime one, because even if less-skilled players can take advantage of it, it could probably be something that could eventually be gamed by better players (or trolls just intentionally jumping off of everything) unless the points attributed to playing well can outweigh the gains by being -intentionally- crap. :x

Simple solution here. Make it not purely "time" based, but more speed wise as well. So not only the longer you are, but at a higher speed you are, the more points... and most importantly, only perfect landing will "bank" the points. So if you'll be jumping all the time without landing properly, no points for you. And the landing will seriously have to be close to perfection to be counted.

This kinda goes against what we'd add it for, which is give lesser skilled players some points as they tumble into the sky. The players in front should be getting enough points to stay up there, anyways.

Queadah wrote:
KazzyMac wrote:Points for barrel rolls? :P

(Nah)

I'm calling it. Points for the barrel rolls that you land (as Ryu said).
  • More tricky to achieve than just air time (you add it on top), not too much air control atm plus not that frequent anyway
  • You encourage racers to risk their position to other racers (e.g. exiting tunnels upside down with an angle) , thus redistributing the cards.
  • You ease the point gap for a racer that landed several rolls after getting blown up.
  • You introduce a "chance" factor
Attributed points per roll should be fairly low:
  • seeing the spreadsheet, I'd say +5pts
  • It's more than 1 bullet of raptor
  • and equivalent to 1 sec of air time
  • which is coherent if you hit a rock and do 1 roll (5pts for air time + 5pts for the roll) as it doubles the point amount compared to a regular 1sec jump

Yep, barrel rolls or trick jumps in general is a good idea

Queadah wrote:Also, destroyed mines ? (Meh, scratch that, it might just fall in the damage-done category)

No this is a good addition, I'll add it

potterman28wxcv wrote:I would prefer simple mechanisms rather than something complex. I mean, especially as the number of weapons will grow, the number of possible "race achievement" awarding points will grow very fast. You could have "EMP then rocket", but also something for "double rocket", or something for "rocket, then boost to overtake him".. If you really want to be creative, you have a tons of possibility. But I don't think it's a good thing - it would be more messy than actually rewarding in my opinion.

We'd start simple with this then grow it if necessary

TheOnLY wrote:Close call:
Pass a mine very close, almost detonating it.
Reverse:
Distance driven backwards.
Mid-air hits:
Shooting an enemy, that does not touch the ground the moment he gets hit.

Also airtime could be distance traveled not touching the ground instead.

Good ideas apart from reverse, as that may encourage trolling.

The airtime would work like that, yea

VooDooQky wrote:Yea, but if distance traveled gets counted then everyone just gets YOLO flyoffs and noone cares where or how just one lands. Jumps should be executed properly to count.

I like the idea of having both airborne time and then a separate landing bonus, so it gives people incentive to land properly
Game Director
GRIP

User avatar
Ryu Makkuro
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:46 pm
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:35 pm

Chris_CE wrote:I disagree that this mode can't be competitive. For one, I'd rather play this mode than normal race because it's well rounded, and adds more reason explore every gameplay facet of the game. And I could see myself caring about it online. Imagine rocket league only gave points for goals and nothing else. Not a perfect example, but you get the idea.

Ok, few things:
- Rocket League points are nothing more than EXP that lets you level up. It has no impact on the standings whatsoever (winner is the team that scores more goals) and the whole point system is meant as a reward for being really good at the game. I'd say it's the complete opposite of what your idea represents.
- Gimmicky modes are for casuals, normal modes for hardcore players, and when it comes to the competitive side, it's the hardcore players that create the trends. That is a standard that presides everywhere. It doesn't matter what game you'll look at, the modes that are closest to the core of the game are the ones that are leading competitive side of the game. This applies to the RC style of games as well, the guys at the tournament did mention that they prefer "Neo mode" much more, as it's down to driver skill more, rather than the pick-up lottery.
- If you reward people for quite literally screwing up, then this is going to be mode that people will play when they don't want to try hard. Mode like that is destined to be just the extra thing out there when it comes to multiplayer side. Perfect for casuals who just come, want to have fun for 30 minutes and then leave without having to practice the game ever.
- Hardcore players are usually the ones that find the most efficient ways of doing something. A lot of them however don't mind abusing heavily some game mechanics just to win, which means it wouldn't be exploring every gameplay facet of the game, but abusing the one facet that gives you the best performance. This can be called a historical fact at this point tbh. For example, last 2 seasons in Diablo 3 were all about abusing a glitch of a certain skill, which resulted in highly frustrating and boring gameplay... but hey, it outperformed everything else out there so they used it even though everyone there hated it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I see perfectly where you're coming from, a different approach to the same old "boring" racing that should make it so people will utilise everything about the gameplay there is. It's great on the paper, problem is, the people that will be playing the competitive mode seriously are those that take most pleasure from the "same old boring racing". That's the main reason why none of those "gimmicky" modes worked out in other games.
Image

User avatar
potterman28wxcv
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Grenoble - France
Contact:

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby potterman28wxcv » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:45 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Chris_CE wrote:I disagree that this mode can't be competitive. For one, I'd rather play this mode than normal race because it's well rounded, and adds more reason explore every gameplay facet of the game. And I could see myself caring about it online. Imagine rocket league only gave points for goals and nothing else. Not a perfect example, but you get the idea.

- If you reward people for quite literally screwing up, then this is going to be mode that people will play when they don't want to try hard. Mode like that is destined to be just the extra thing out there when it comes to multiplayer side. Perfect for casuals who just come, want to have fun for 30 minutes and then leave without having to practice the game ever.

In Rollcage leagues you get 1 point regardless of any result. So you can literally just stands there, do nothing, and get 1 point.

But that point won't make you gain the league. Because other people got more points than you then. You need to reach the 10 and 6 points, not the 1 one.

Same thing here. If the score for screwing up (flying) is low enough, people won't screw up just for it, but instead will try to make their best to gain the other points. Of course, if that score is too high, yes it can become profitable for people to spend their time flying. But if it's small enough it won't make you win.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:- Hardcore players are usually the ones that find the most efficient ways of doing something. A lot of them however don't mind abusing heavily some game mechanics just to win, which means it wouldn't be exploring every gameplay facet of the game, but abusing the one facet that gives you the best performance. This can be called a historical fact at this point tbh. For example, last 2 seasons in Diablo 3 were all about abusing a glitch of a certain skill, which resulted in highly frustrating and boring gameplay... but hey, it outperformed everything else out there so they used it even though everyone there hated it.

You're taking the example of Diablo 3, which is a much more complex game than Grip when it comes to user choices. In Diablo 3, as a team of 4 players, you have so many variables to look for when trying to balance it: the many skills, the stuff affixes, the different combination of characters, the monster damages, and so on.. So of course in these games there will always be an optimal broken strategy, because balancing is very hard.

In Ultimate Racing, how many variables would you get ? No more than 10 or 20 really - just the amount of points one player gets for that achievement. If a particular mechanism is found to be exploitable and broken (which we will find out once Multiplayer is released I guess), you just nerf the said amount of points. Next iteration: if it's not enough, you nerf it more. If it's been too nerfed, you increase it slightly more. And iteration after iteration you find a good balance, one that allows both diversity and non-broken mechanisms.

Or if that work reveals to be too much time consuming for the devs, well no one is forcing the competitive scene to play that particular mode.

@Ryu: Same arguments that I told you during our conversation on Steam, but there is an additional one this time :p

A more important problem is that the races might feel a little bit chaotic. I remember than in Rollcage Stage 2, I did not really know if it was better to be first everytime, or if I should stay more with the group. There was the best lap that granted you the 5000 bonus, so it made it worth going crazy for a lap (and then going crazy again if you were dethroned), but arriving first was granting you only 2000 points while by staying in the middle you could easily get 3000 or 4000 points per lap.. That said, in Grip the cars are less close than they are in Rollcage Stage 2 (you have less opportunities to land your weapons, or so I find), so it might balance out
Because I'm even more boring than Broscar -> Rules of the GRIP forum
Check out the sign-ups for the Rollcage Neo-mode Tournament 2017, starting 15th April !

And with a rusty wrench
God created the french

Admin of the Image

User avatar
Queadah
Early Supporter 6
Early Supporter 6
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Ultimate Racing - ***Need feedback***

Postby Queadah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:42 pm

Missile point count 8-)
Image


Return to “Game Modes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron