How you can further support us (previously a poll about a donation button)

Discuss anything regarding Grip that doesn't belong in the other forum categories

Do you think it's ok for us to have a donation button on the site?

No, that's too greedy
1
3%
Sounds fine, but I won't be donating
10
26%
Sure, I'd like to help out some more
28
72%
 
Total votes: 39

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Chris_CE
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How you can further support us (previously a poll about a donation button)

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:22 pm

Hey guys,

If you'd like to further support us, you can buy some extra keys through our Paypal account. Some users have already done this.

Just shoot me an email at chris@cagedelement.com and specify how many keys you'd like to buy

I'll confirm the payment and send over some fresh keys.

As always, we appreciate all the love you guys are giving us, and GRIP :)

(NOTE: any money gained from your extra purchases is put straight back into the game towards development costs)

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OLD TEXT of "[POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?":

Members have mentioned giving donations in the past and we were strictly against it, but Queadah recently talked about it and I'm making the topic open for discussion.

If we were to do this, we would not expect a lot of money to come out of it (nor would we want our fans to donate a lot), but even something like $1000 more a month will help pay for new art assets, or help put some money in the core dev team's pockets.

Please vote in the poll - and feel free to be honest, as we can't see what individual people vote. It's anonymous

Thanks!

EDIT: We could even broadcast the donation total for each month next to the button on the site, as to let people know how much we are taking in
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:41 pm

I'm definitely in for this. Game development has been increasingly more demanding on finances with each year after all, especially for the games that are aiming for photo-realistic graphics.

If extra money will mean more stuff come sooner and general improvements to the workflow... I don't see why not. Steam is taking its own cut from the Early Access after all, so a way to at least bridge that gap shouldn't surprise anyone.

Also, I do like the idea with the total amount broadcast. Nice thing to have, could work as a motivation as well for more people to donate.
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby psppwner300 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:32 pm

If the game was open-source: absolutely.

But seeing as there already was a Kickstarter, and funds can be retrieved by means of the Steam store...why ask for something more?

I just don't think the game is advertised that much; if it can be sold to third-party retailers like Humble Bundle, where we could buy keys instead of having to add a friend on Steam just to gift a copy, that would be nice. Throw it on sale a couple of times even; the argument that I hear most often is "such-and-such a game is too expensive."

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:32 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Steam is taking its own cut from the Early Access after all, so a way to at least bridge that gap shouldn't surprise anyone.

Well, Steam is our distributor, so they're cut makes sense.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Also, I do like the idea with the total amount broadcast. Nice thing to have, could work as a motivation as well for more people to donate.

It would be more for allowing people to know that we want them to see how much we're pulling in, rather than incite them to give a donation. It's a tricky spot to be in, which is why I started the poll. Already someone disagrees with the donation button
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:35 pm

psppwner300 wrote:But seeing as there already was a Kickstarter

Just FYI, we made no money from the Kickstarter, as it failed.

psppwner300 wrote:I just don't think the game is advertised that much; if it can be sold to third-party retailers like Humble Bundle, where we could buy keys instead of having to add a friend on Steam just to gift a copy, that would be nice. Throw it on sale a couple of times even; the argument that I hear most often is "such-and-such a game is too expensive."

The thing is, we don't want to promote the game too much until it's more content-rich. Many casual gamers would probably refund because the game is still pretty bare-bones. Currently we're just working as hard as we can toward getting content in the game, and then when it's justified, we will push to market this thing. That's when we'll look into sales, bundles and other outlets
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Queadah » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:06 pm

Standard disclaimer: I understand why people could be reluctant to the idea and I'm not going to try to convince anyone to part with their money.

Ok, what do we have ?
  • We have a small team with limited resources building that game we wanted
  • They played fair and square, setup their kickstarter, failed, got greenlit and thus still gathered resources
  • They grow their baby accordingly
  • By now I think we know beyond a reasonable doubt they're trustworthy

Now from my perspective, what's to stop anyone from throwing their cash if they want to ?
i.e. I know I have a subscription to a game that I'm about to cancel. I want to be able to redirect that cash flow to support CE.
You stopped smocking (pot ^^) and want to redirect the (10$ per week x 4 = ) 40$ per month to CE, why shouldn't you be able to ?

Yes I understand the notion of "something in return" (the point of early access), but donations shouldn't be discarded:
  • and it's ok if it doesn't earn much
  • and it's ok if devs aren't to be chained and 100% accountable (artistic liberty)
  • it's the principle behind donations. Some people have faith, some don't.
I didn't pay an "early backer" access to Wikipedia, yet I use it very often. I seldom made donations yet I don't expect them to plaster my name all over the place because I gave a few pennies.

I want my kids to be able to play the best version of one of my childhood games, and I'd be sad if CE had to hold its punches due to $$ limitations 8-)
Last edited by Queadah on Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Django » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:38 pm

A Donation Button wouldnt hurt anybody. So from a logic perspective there is nothing wrong with it. Someone has too much money and throws you some and the next guy thinks "Why should i?" and doesnt. Both is perfectly understandable and fine to do.

But what do the ones that donate get in return? A warm feeling for supporting something nice.

Now the downside could be if for some reason the ones that dont donate get a bad feeling for "not supporting enough".
So it would absolutly crucial how it will be communicated. So i would say: yes do it but dont whine about how much you could use the money because that could maybe create a bad conscience for some people.

So here in this forum you can say pretty much anything and it will be fine. But steam is a tricky place.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Django wrote:So here in this forum you can say pretty much anything and it will be fine. But steam is a tricky place.

Donation badge just for this forum would be quite perfect. Away from Steam, so the casuals and what not won't be annoyed, and it's a very common solution used for donations all over the place.

Chris_CE wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:Steam is taking its own cut from the Early Access after all, so a way to at least bridge that gap shouldn't surprise anyone.

Well, Steam is our distributor, so they're cut makes sense.

Of course, just pointing out that it's not as beautiful as some people may think ;)

Chris_CE wrote:Already someone disagrees with the donation button

And seeing that the person thought you had the funds from the Kickstarter, along with other poor points (you can buy keys from G2A, Steam gifting works the same for every game and games are expensive in general), I think it's safe to say why that option was chosen. I mean not to discredit someone or anything, but the reasoning there is very weak and no actual arguments why this would've been a bad idea (especially in your situation) have been made.
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Django » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:06 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Django wrote:So here in this forum you can say pretty much anything and it will be fine. But steam is a tricky place.

Donation badge just for this forum would be quite perfect. Away from Steam, so the casuals and what not won't be annoyed, and it's a very common solution used for donations all over the place.


Yeah, most likely it also wont be a problem in steam. This Team is in good standing at the moment. I just dont trust the steam community, the plattform attracts the strangest people sometimes. Maybe the problem lies also in the way steam works im not sure.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Similii » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:16 pm

I think it's a great idea, that would allow us to get more involved in dev and you'll be less worried about money that way if you see that the money is coming in, so a total yes for me and understandable!
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:37 pm

Django wrote:Yeah, most likely it also wont be a problem in steam. This Team is in good standing at the moment. I just dont trust the steam community, the plattform attracts the strangest people sometimes. Maybe the problem lies also in the way steam works im not sure.

Well, Steam is nowadays the casuals choice when it comes to buying games and moaning about something. So naturally, the old school guys there are being outnumbered by the people that tend to ask questions to which answers have been given.
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby psppwner300 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:30 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Chris_CE wrote:Already someone disagrees with the donation button

And seeing that the person thought you had the funds from the Kickstarter

Nowhere in "the person"'s post post did he mention that. If the Kickstarter failed, how is having a donation button going to make things any different?

Ryu Makkuro wrote:you can buy keys from G2A

You could, but devs don't get any profit from that site. I meant legitimate retailers.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Steam gifting works the same for every game

Not to be weird or anything, but I don't like the fact that you have to add a friend in order to gift a copy. I keep my friends list very small. A key, on the other hand, is a bit more simple: you can just PM or email it and that's all.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:poor points

Ryu Makkuro wrote:very weak

Ryu Makkuro wrote:no actual arguments

Say what now? ;-)

In any event, I know there's some hardcore fans out there who would love to see the game progress even further than it is right now. So I'm not trying to argue here; this is merely an opinion.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby potterman28wxcv » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:28 am

I think it's a good idea to have a donation button.

But expecting even 1000$ a month is pretty much high expectancy if it stays local to this forum.

I mean, if you do the math, and if you suppose that around 100 people here are following actively the development, then it means that each guy would have to give you freely 10$ a month.

Unless you also advertise it on Steam and within the game, but then like Django said, you encounter the risk of people flaming you "why the hell do they need more money ?".

That said, the GRIP players seem to be very nice so far compared to the average steam player.. so maybe it would not pose any problem after all.

psppwner300 wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:poor points

Ryu Makkuro wrote:very weak

Ryu Makkuro wrote:no actual arguments

Say what now? ;-)

That was absolutely not needed psppwner. Please don't bait other people, let's keep this as constructive as possible.
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:30 am

psppwner300 wrote:Nowhere in "the person"'s post post did he mention that. If the Kickstarter failed, how is having a donation button going to make things any different?

So why did you assume there was any successful Kickstarter in the first place, when there was no mention of it in that post? If you don't have all the information, you first confirm before assuming things.
Also, Chris explained what difference that would make:
Chris_CE wrote:but even something like $1000 more a month will help pay for new art assets, or help put some money in the core dev team's pockets.


They proved over time that they are an honest bunch and they ask for it ONLY because we mentioned that ourselves, and it would benefit the games development, not so they can buy themselves a Ferrari (with all the options xD ) -_-

Given that they were against it the first time this was even mentioned and now they are willing to discuss about it, that shows the funds are a lot more strict than they first assumed. Naturally, the amount of those will vary, but it's always something. Maybe a Patreon page could work?
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Queadah » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:01 am

@Ryu Makkuro: what takes the lowest fee, good call (I didn't know Patreon).

I think we're all above petty considerations as to what CE will do with the money. Some will donate, some won't, both is fine :)

edit: +1 for the donation total counter

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby TheOnLY » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:47 am

I don't think that you will earn enough money to pay for advancements in development, but you could invest it in small things for the games community like a ts3 or mumble server,so we can yell at each other for firing another assassin while playing multi-player. :D it could help the community to grow.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:59 am

Queadah wrote:@Ryu Makkuro: what takes the lowest fee, good call (I didn't know Patreon).

Patreon basically allows you to support someone monthly with donations. The amount of donations depends on you. I believe 1$ is the minimum. It can also automatically repeat those donations on a monthly basis, so you don't have to remember about it every time.

TheOnLY wrote:I don't think that you will earn enough money to pay for advancements in development, but you could invest it in small things for the games community like a ts3 or mumble server,so we can yell at each other for firing another assassin while playing multi-player. :D it could help the community to grow.

There are free ways of having a voice chat for entire communities. Razer Comms offers a really good one (and at a higher quality than majority TS3 or mumble servers). No point spending money there at all. It all depends on how much they could get from donations though. I know that some people can be really generous when it comes to this kind of thing, so you never know.
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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Django » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:32 am

Ryu Makkuro wrote:I know that some people can be really generous when it comes to this kind of thing, so you never know.


Thats the one thing. The other is that even some small donations could make a diffrence. Not necessarly noticable but something is better than nothing and the button itself wouldnt cost anything. OK maybe a percentage fee to paypal but what other economic downside could there be?

If you do it than its probably a good idea to make a small disclaimer or FAQ.

Maybe like this:

"1. What happens if nobody donates? - We will still finish the game.
2. Get Donators anything extra? Aside from a warm feeling - No they dont.
3. What happens with the money? All the donated money will to 100% go into development.
4. Why do this now? Because parts of the community asked us to give them a way to support us.
5. How big is the cut from paypal / patreon (or whatever) ? Its ... "

EDIT: Btw. have you heard the story from the guy that wanted 10$ to make a potato salad and got more than 55 thousand Dollar? He ended up writing a book, getting referenced in Southpark and organising a small festival for potato lovers (PotatoStock).
Last edited by Django on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Django » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:58 am

^^ Sorry for double Posting
Last edited by Django on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [POLL] How do you feel about us having a donation button on the site?

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:30 am

Django wrote:EDIT: Btw. have you heard the story from the guy that wanted 10$ to make a potato salad and got more than 55 thousand Dollar? He ended up writing a book, getting referenced in Southpark and organising a small festival for potato lovers (PotatoStock).

I haven't heard, but that just shows how... well, f*cked up some people are. Usually donations towards some stupid things reach ridiculous amounts, while those for really cool/worthy stuff are barely reaching the requirements, especially when they don't come from big companies that can advertise it well.
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