Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

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potterman28wxcv
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Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:20 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:
Similii wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:Sometimes I wish for some kind of "Internet License", where you have to pass a test to be able to use it. That test should include ability to transfer thoughts into a text in a way that is understandable for other humans... in English.

Bro, I remember you that not everybody has a native english language (like Potty or me for example, which is the greater language in the world, French (héhé)), so everybody has to do an effort to speak english (even if it's bad) and to understand it, even if the english we read is awful (like mine for example)

It's not mine native language as well. Also, almost 5 times less people speak French as their native language than English, so where did you get the "greater" from? Also when you add how widespread English is... yeah, sounds like a poor excuse to me.

English is not a difficult language to learn at all. If your life would depend on it, you would learn it in a matter of days, if not even hours in some extreme cases. Nowadays you can learn to speak it really well in a matter of a week or two, if you really want it. So anyone typing "I'm sorry for my English" is actually not sorry at all, because if you would, you wouldn't be making excuses but getting better at it.

Also, unlike you, Potterman writes in a perfectly understandable way, without really making mistakes. And even if he does, heck, everyone does, that includes me and native speakers as well. Just that it usually doesn't result in something that cannot be understand.

The very idea of this forum is to convey your feedback to Devs. If you can't do it in a way that leaves no room for misinterpretation, then it creates issues. You improving your English will simply benefit your ability to help with the game development. Less time they spend figuring out what you mean, more time they can spend on actually fixing/adding stuff.

Similii made a joke when he said that French was the greatest language :-p

For French people learning English is very hard. I only know English so well because at 14 I was already bathing in it by browsing forums, and then at 20 there was the Rollcage group which improved my English a lot, + also my international class that required everyone to speak English all the time.

While I agree that English is easy to learn, I understand that some people have difficulties to learn it. Even though some threads written poorly are hard to figure out, well with some effort, and maybe additional post from the users, eventually we get the idea (which might be original and worth reading by the way).
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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby Django » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:58 am

@Ryu Makkuro
Its pretty illusional and ignorant to ask for people passing an english test before entering the internet. If it comes to gaming and modding russian is a very important language. Large parts of the internet speak spanish, arabic or chinese. If your language is the main language just depends on were you are on the internet.

Also we should not forget that we dont know who we are talking to. The other person might speaks already six asian languages fluently or its might be a twelve year old italian. Give him/her a break. ;)

Translation programms have also come a long way. They are still bad but if the context is known its now possible to understand arabic or kurdish articles.

And even more importantly this licence already exists. Its called "if people dont understand you they will most likely not talk to you".


@Potty
Bad French english skills are legendary. Has something to do with the school system, well so ive heard.

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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby TheOnLY » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:55 am

I don't mind when people don't speak perfect english, as long a i understand what they want to say. If i don't understand the post the 2nd time i read it, i will ignore it.
However i feel that some people on the internet are just too lazy to look a word up. Bad grammar usually is still understandable when the context is known, but when someone uses words that don't exist or wirte them so wrong that they are unrecognisable, because they cant be bothered to look it up (there are online dictionaries for almost every language), then i cant be bothered to decipher their text.
Both sides have to make an effort to make communication work.

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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:19 am

Django wrote:@Ryu Makkuro
Its pretty illusional and ignorant to ask for people passing an english test before entering the internet. If it comes to gaming and modding russian is a very important language. Large parts of the internet speak spanish, arabic or chinese. If your language is the main language just depends on were you are on the internet.

Ignorant? I simply ask someone to be able to speak properly (or at least in an easy to understand manner) when they want to convey a message. This is not some extreme situation where you don't have any time and have to deal with what you have. You can take your time, learn it (aside from schools there are courses and what not) and then post on the forums.
Lack of empathy would be a better way of describing, especially when it's actually the case with me -_-

And yes, Russian is important... if you're a cheater. Otherwise, completely pointless. Nothing good ever came out of that country and never will. On top of that aside from just learning how to speak, you also need to learn how to write in Cyrillic. More than a pain in the rear. And the legit Russians who make mods to improve games, have learnt English and post their stuff in that language.

English is the standardised language for international communication. It's the most common language when it comes to anything and everything in the internet. Just because there are other language groups that are common purely down to numbers of native speakers, doesn't mean they are actually that... popular. I mean sure, Spanish is popular, but I find German to be more popular on the internet. A lot of Spanish speaking countries have unfortunately bad infrastructure, to the point where internet access is not a common thing. And Chinese are 1/6th of the human population with the best growing economy, so yeah...
However even if you include that, some standards have been set already. And I can hardly believe that Chinese or Spanish will become the main language on the internet at this point in time...
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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby potterman28wxcv » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:31 pm

Django wrote:Bad French english skills are legendary. Has something to do with the school system, well so ive heard.

Yes unfortunately. I've heard 90% of my english in the web and outside of school courses.
In school you will focus on useless stuff. You learn for 5 years where to use "this" or "that", or which connecting word you should have in the sentence, or you learn at which tense should the verb be, but you never learn how to speak english.

Our way of learning is too "mathematical" in general. You learn how to deal with logic, and you also try to apply that logic with all the courses, including English. Thing is, logic is not really adapted to learn a language (by learning a language I don't mean learning the grammar, but actually learning how to read and write in that language. The grammar should come after)

Also, when no one else but the teacher speaks english, it does not help. English is viewed as yet-another-course here, not as an actual way of communication.
Unless you go by yourself on the internet and start messing around with english :-)

Ryu Makkuro wrote:And yes, Russian is important... if you're a cheater. Otherwise, completely pointless. Nothing good ever came out of that country and never will.And the legit Russians who make mods to improve games, have learnt English and post their stuff in that language.

Russia participated a lot in science discovery
Besides, Russian people are still people. It's a different culture, but it's still a culture.
I don't see the correlation between being Russian and cheating neither.

Ryu Makkuro wrote:And the legit Russians who make mods to improve games, have learnt English and post their stuff in that language.

They don't really have a choice do they ? They post their stuff in English for the same exact reason I'm speaking with you in English right now: English became the international language of the web in Europe and USA (I don't know for asian countries).
Me posting in English does not mean I'm ashamed of my French language, so I don't really get the point you're trying to make with "legit" russians posting in English.
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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby Django » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:32 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:Lack of empathy would be a better way of describing, especially when it's actually the case with me -_-

Maybe, anyway dont take it to heart its just about the argument.


Ryu Makkuro wrote:And yes, Russian is important... if you're a cheater. Otherwise, completely pointless. Nothing good ever came out of that country and never will. On top of that aside from just learning how to speak, you also need to learn how to write in Cyrillic. More than a pain in the rear. And the legit Russians who make mods to improve games, have learnt English and post their stuff in that language.

You make no sense. Those legit modders came from russia too. So nothing good ever? Really? There is plenty of stuff but lets focus on gaming. From time to time there are russian games with great potenial and awesome ideas. Problem is most of them are buggy as hell. Maybe thats the reason why they have often very talented and, more importantly, passionate modders.

The legit modders are part of russian modding communitys too. Also the guy posting in some english forum is not necessarily the most legit one. Its sometimes just the the dude who had the best language skills in his modding community.

Damn, i just realised that Stalker is mostly from ukraine and only partly from Russia. A whatever close enough.
OK there is: Tetris, Heros of Might and Magic 5, Sturmovik, Silent Storm, Metro 2033 and World of Tanks is from that other country which also calls itself russia (OK greyzone at best, whatever).

The russian gaming industry is not really huge but their was some good stuff.


Ryu Makkuro wrote:English is the standardised language for international communication. It's the most common language when it comes to anything and everything in the internet. Just because there are other language groups that are common purely down to numbers of native speakers, doesn't mean they are actually that... popular. I mean sure, Spanish is popular, but I find German to be more popular on the internet. A lot of Spanish speaking countries have unfortunately bad infrastructure, to the point where internet access is not a common thing. And Chinese are 1/6th of the human population with the best growing economy, so yeah...
However even if you include that, some standards have been set already. And I can hardly believe that Chinese or Spanish will become the main language on the internet at this point in time...


My point is that we all live in bubbles. Yes english is the biggest language on the internet. But you can stay in the german part or the japanese part and you wont really miss much. Because this is the sh*t you know and there is enough of it. Until you realize there is lots of good stuff out there that you dont really have access too because its in languages that you dont understand.

Also content wise english is declining. In 1996 about 80% of webpages were in english and in 2005 it was estimated to be only about 45%. Those numbers are probably higly inaccurate but i believe in the trend. It just would make sense because more and more people from an non english background get internet access.

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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:59 pm

potterman28wxcv wrote:I don't see the correlation between being Russian and cheating neither.

Let me put it this way. I've played through quite a lot of online games, and the moment I see a Russian, I know cheats are involved. And it's not a stereotype. I've been playing NFSWorld for the better part of 4 years and in that time, I have not seen a single Russian that wasn't cheating. Honestly, not exaggerating. There was one that seemed legit, but I wasn't 100% sure, since I remember seeing some weird stuff from him.

And this unfortunately applies to other games. Alpha test of World of Speed, Russians only, NDA so no one can post videos publicly... and they streamed it -_- Then most trainers for online games are made by Russians. When it comes to cheating, Russians are the undisputed champion. Not everyone, but insane amount of them. My country isn't that much better, but still...

potterman28wxcv wrote:
Ryu Makkuro wrote:And the legit Russians who make mods to improve games, have learnt English and post their stuff in that language.

They don't really have a choice do they ? They post their stuff in English for the same exact reason I'm speaking with you in English right now: English became the international language of the web in Europe and USA (I don't know for asian countries).
Me posting in English does not mean I'm ashamed of my French language, so I don't really get the point you're trying to make with "legit" russians posting in English.

Well, they do. Just they won't do it, because people on the sites that utilise their language are not interested in those mods, but in trainers and generally things that make "life easier". They go for international sites where people truly appreciate those things. So by "legit" Russians I simply mean those that don't cheat. There are exceptions as to everything, but this holds true to a great majority.
I'm not ashamed of my Polish language as well (kurwa xD ), but I do refrain from using it when I know people won't understand the language. Though often I don't use Polish in the chat as Polish players have... not the best of reputations out there.

Django wrote:You make no sense. Those legit modders came from russia too. So nothing good ever? Really? There is plenty of stuff but lets focus on gaming. From time to time there are russian games with great potenial and awesome ideas. Problem is most of them are buggy as hell. Maybe thats the reason why they have often very talented and, more importantly, passionate modders.

I didn't literally meant that nothing ever, more in a metaphorical way, but never mind.

I don't count games or any commercial products. To sell on international market they need to be good. So I ignore those things completely. And they most likely hire people from outside Russia, so yeah...

What I mean there mainly is Russians as a community, as a country. Sure, there are few people from there that did some outstanding stuff, kudos to them. But when you look in general, what I said there is disturbingly close to truth. And I don't mean just gaming.

Django wrote:My point is that we all live in bubbles. Yes english is the biggest language on the internet. But you can stay in the german part or the japanese part and you wont really miss much.

I agree. However the moment you do want to go into those other language zones, it's your responsibility to learn how to communicate in an acceptable level before you enter those. People that come in, write in a way that no one can understand and then at the bottom "Sorry for my english" are the perfect example of hypocrisy.

Django wrote:Maybe, anyway dont take it to heart its just about the argument.

You understood me wrong there. It's not that I don't like showing empathy to others due to their problems, issues, inabilities etc. but purely due to the fact I'm unable to. Thus my reactions are a bit... out of the norm, as are my views which are more drastic. It's just how I am and I'm fine with it. Most people aren't though xD
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Re: Using English language in the forum and difficulties with it

Postby Django » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:I didn't literally meant that nothing ever, more in a metaphorical way, but never mind.


This is the thing. You exaggarate way to much. So you start with a good argument -> exaggerate and end up with a very bad argument.

This is the internet. That means never assume that people understand how you meant it. Just say exactly what you mean. Its not always easy but it will help your arguments immensly.


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