Gravity and skidding

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mrjimp
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Gravity and skidding

Postby mrjimp » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:27 pm

Hi,

2 things that has really bothered me for the last few patches are gravity and skidding.

Gravity.
While gravity sure COULD be lower than here on earth, judging by the structures, atmosphere, and nature, gravity should not be smaller than here on earth.

Also, while I guess its pretty cool to see grip cars flying like they're gonna go into orbit, it has some serious drawbacks.
Small crashes takes too long to recover from. Even small crashes make you spend a significant time in the air, making the RESET CAR button the most viable recover option almost every time. This is kind of booring, and I think counter productive. I want a game where there is skill in recovering from a crash and penalty when you MUST use the RESET option.

Skidding.
While the new drift option is kind of cool, there are still mechanics in the drifting/skidding behavior that makes skillful play impossible.
There is a brief timeout or artificial lag from when you start to skid until you can actually do something about it. At least when you play with the keyboard. Maybe there is a setting for this, because this is starting to get to me to the point I might not play this game anymore.

Let me try to explain it in detail.
When I detect a involuntary skid I compensate in usual race manner by steering the way you skid to try a regain control.
For a brief moment the skid continues, and my compensation is ignored.
Since nothing happens I keep pressing the steering key.
Then after what feels like a fixed amount of time (maybe half a second or so), my steering has the effect of throwing me into another skid the other way.
I compensate for that, in the same manner, with the same outcome.... rinse and repeat until crash.

I even try to compensate less, by only tapping the steer left, hoping the amount of compensation will be less if I do not keep the button pressed for the entire timeout duration, but that has no effect on the next skid.

It seems the best bet to counter a skid is... to do nothing until its over, hoping you do not crash? To me, who loves arcade racers, this is totally counter intuitive.

I think I bug reported this timeout behavior a few patches ago even. This just not feel right.

This has also become a bigger problem with the new drift mechanics since skidding occurs much more often now, as well as the car bumbing upo and down on uneven terrain more.

I like the uneven terrain thingy, but right now it combines very poorly with this timeout skid "bug".

Thanks.

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby potterman28wxcv » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:42 am

mrjimp wrote:While gravity sure COULD be lower than here on earth, judging by the structures, atmosphere, and nature, gravity should not be smaller than here on earth.

There is no logical relation here. Let's suppose you build a house on Earth. This house is supposed to be able to sustain Earth gravity.
Now if you move this same house to a lesser gravity planet, why would the house collapse ? It would not, since it was strong enough to sustain Earth gravity, thus it is still strong enough to sustain the gravity of that planet.

So you actually have two same buildings in two planets with different gravity - the gravity should not necessarily be the same than on Earth, even if you have the same buildings.

Same reasoning for atmosphere and nature.. For the atmosphere, a lower gravity means a lower pressure, but if there is say more gaz or less temperature, then the composition should be the same (in terms of density distribution).

For nature, it's impossible to say right now because we are still looking for a planet offering life out there. But I'm quite sure the lower gravity would not alter it that much. Hell, it's even possible to grow a plant on a zero-gravity environment.

mrjimp wrote:Also, while I guess its pretty cool to see grip cars flying like they're gonna go into orbit, it has some serious drawbacks.
Small crashes takes too long to recover from. Even small crashes make you spend a significant time in the air, making the RESET CAR button the most viable recover option almost every time. This is kind of booring, and I think counter productive. I want a game where there is skill in recovering from a crash and penalty when you MUST use the RESET option.

Right now with the new forcefield on the sky, the fly time has been drastically reduced. Or at least that's my feeling.
But I agree that it could be even better.
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Chris_CE
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Chris_CE » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:28 pm

What steering settings are you using?

What framerates are you getting?

Can you take a video of this skidding issue you speak of?


The cars colliding with stuff and flying high into the air is unwanted behavior and we're already taking steps to fix it
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby mrjimp » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:58 pm

Hey Chris.

I was just wondering has there been a small update recently?

The effect I describe above is almost gone at higher speeds when i try it now, but it still resides with speeds under 300kmph using the dominator. Its abit more noticable on the drednaught, but not much. Its also much harder to get the sticky skid I was describing above. (Meaning that if you keep the button pressed, you will get thrown into another skid with a timeout on it).

Now the first skid has a timeout, but the next skid does not which gives you back control. This works for me, even though I dont think its right. ;)

I could still show you the effect IF i knew how make you see the key presses at the same time. Its not a long delay I'm speaking of.

But to answer your questions:
Digital steering speed: Low
My framerates are 60+, Running on 2 SLI configured Nvidia gtx 780. Max grafic settings. (havent checked for sure, but i see no hicups or stuttering when playing)

Let me know if you still want the VID, and how to make you see my keypresses while driving. (I have an idea, but if you have a prefered way its probably way better).

Jimmi

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:01 pm

I'm still not sure what you mean by skid timeout.. but it could be that I'm sick and can't comprehend things properly right now :p
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Skid » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Please don't time me out I've not done anything wrong :(
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby mrjimp » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:12 pm

Aight. I'll try to explain:

Normally (at least in my experience) when you enter a skid the car still reacts to your input immediately. Input here meaning gas, breaks, and steering. In grip, when I enter a skid, steering has no effect on the skid for a short period of time (0.5s?). Gas and break still work, but it doesnt effect the skid like it does later.

After this "timeout" steering WILL affect your skid as well as breaking and gas. By affecting the skid i mean to affect the turnrate of the car mostly since sliding is pretty limited.

Also, which was my big problem before, if you compensated during the timeout you would be thrown into another skid when this "timeout" was over.

Also English is not my native language. Maybe I mean slide instead of skid. What I mean is when you loose grip in a turn.

Hope I cleared it up a bit?

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Django » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:16 am

I never heard skid in this context before. Drift or Slide would be the more traditional use of words. 'Do skid' sounds also like someone is losing control.

OK i googled a bit and seems like "a drift is a controlled skid" and their are some special tuned "skid cars" that allow to drift with very low speed.

I guess a skid would mean to loose traction and control whereas a drift or slide would mean that you loose traction but stay in control.

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby KazzyMac » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:41 am

I think what he means is that the car doesn't initially respond to attempts to countersteer it and then when it does it's a very abrupt 'snap' in the opposite direction, that happens quick-enough that you can't react to it.


I've noticed it too, the car is very twitchy when it comes to regaining control of the car in a fishtail/tank-slapper. Easiest way to see what he's talking about is to get a bit of air going down the downhill section on Yuri, and land a bit at an angle. Have fun getting the car back straight without hitting anything or using the left side-path as an escape :P

In all seriousness though it's a known problem, but the game's grip mechanics aren't finalised yet (nowhere near). Give it time and the car's tendency to overcorrect on countersteering should get fixed. :P


(( Oh, for the record - the game's gravity is higher than that of Earth's. The cars are really just that big. :P ))
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby mrjimp » Tue May 03, 2016 4:40 pm

Thanks KazzyMac.

I think you sum it up pretty well. :)

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Chris_CE » Fri May 13, 2016 9:34 am

KazzyMac wrote:In all seriousness though it's a known problem, but the game's grip mechanics aren't finalised yet (nowhere near). Give it time and the car's tendency to overcorrect on countersteering should get fixed. :P

Kmac pretty much said what I was going to. Rob's fixing a bunch of physics issues before he gets back into friction
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Tathendal » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:33 pm

What about the gravity "issue"? I think there could be more gravity, so that the cars would feel more heavy. Now they don't feel really heavy when they fly and take ages to land down... (I mean situations that you mess up and drive into a wall and fly way up, in the normal driving the gravity feels fine) I want greater gravity please =) Or is the gravity "low" on purpose?

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Queadah » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:36 am

I recall Chris somewhere said that gravity was already 3x higher than normal.
Fine with the amount of "flying" here. At those speeds it doesn't shock me. Plus we have the invisible barriers (and reset button).

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Tathendal » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:12 am

Oh, ok then. Yeah it doesn't shock me either, but I just kinda wish the car would come down more quickly. I didn't mean that the gravity would be too low in general, just the moments when you crash and fly up and then come down... eventually. Those jumps that are there in the tracks, those feel good. Makes me think of ski jumping! Just my opinion how the cars could feel more heavy, but I don't know if it's that simple or not. Probably not.

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Queadah » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:08 am

You got TRICKED man ! :mrgreen:
  • The mass of an object does NOT influence speed of fall
It can sound counter intuitive but many teachers love to trick students with this piece of physics.
Discounting profile drag (air resistance), a mouse freefalls (and accelerates) the same as an elephant (acceleration in free fall being the gravity, g, or 9,81m/s2 average on earth).

Chris should drop that explanation everytime someone says GRIP cars fall like feathers... because they "do", as everything else (drag discounted again) and it's normal !!!

Suggestion: cam shake upon landing proportional to height drop (to "feel" weight)

To be accurate (sorry for this sh*t), cam shake should be proportional to the square of speed upon impact to simulate the release of the kinetic energy (1/2 * mass * speed^2). The formulae also means: car with a heavier mass = bigger cam shake
Last edited by Queadah on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Tathendal » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:53 pm

Well yeah I know that much but still my opinion is that the game would feel better (when crashing, it's the only scenario I am talking right now) bit more gravity. I meant that when you drive into a wall the car launches too much in to the air, and comes down too slowly. Heavier car doesn't beat the force of gravity as easily as a lighter car and therefore wouldn't launch as high when a crash occurs. Or If the gravity was greater, it wouldn't launch so high. Am I right here? Physics isn't my strongest field I will admit that :D

This is what I mean: When you drive regularly, it feels as in you are racing in the same gravity as Earth has. When you crash into a rock and launch in the air, the gravity seems to be like in the Moon. OFC this is just my opinion, and I seem to be in minority and it's not that of a big deal since it's only when crashing so I can shut up now :D Just thought to bring this thought up.

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Queadah » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:28 pm

Rob (our guru coder) detailed some of that somewhere with energy dissipation, collisions, and said there's an amount of built-in physics he has to deal with and parts of tweaking he does himself.

We'll be fine :)

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:58 pm

If you look at the new cinematic replays after a race or in demo mode in the menu, you'll see that the cars actually come down very fast, actually visibly too fast to look like normal gravity. The issue lies in the bounciness of the environment collisions, which is for some reason too high. This sends the car flying higher and further than it should

Trust me, we're very aware of it ;)
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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby Tathendal » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:00 am

Chris_CE wrote:If you look at the new cinematic replays after a race or in demo mode in the menu, you'll see that the cars actually come down very fast, actually visibly too fast to look like normal gravity. The issue lies in the bounciness of the environment collisions, which is for some reason too high. This sends the car flying higher and further than it should

Trust me, we're very aware of it ;)


Yes this is exactly what I meant. Thank you for the answer and good to know you are aware of it!

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Re: Gravity and skidding

Postby zephiris » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:46 pm

if something with the mass of a grip car, going at the speed of a grip car, races into a slope of the kind that shoots you into the air in grip game:

- grip/game physics -> the slope stays intact; the car stays intact and is catapulted by the curve of the slope upwards into the air.
- reality physics -> either the slope or the car would inevitably be destroyed, because of the beforementioned energy dissipation. as at least one of the two would be destroyed > either the car plows through the slope with some penalty in speed, slope explodes. or the car disintegrates into its components and shrapnel upon contact and the parts would go wheeling off into the slope and up into the air... probably with about the same speed and drag as the grip cars do now in the game, only it would be in little bits and pieces... ;)

or something inbetween... ;)
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