POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

A place where the GRIP devs poll for feedback on various topics.

Please stay on topic in each poll's corresponding thread

Which issues with the game annoy/frustrate you the most? (2 choices)

When deploying missiles, they hit the environment right away instead of going towards their target
17
28%
Assassin missile "spam" when you're in first place
6
10%
The EMP in how it slows cars down
5
8%
The EMP in how it lifts cars off the ground a bit
3
5%
The amount of mines on the track at any given time
1
2%
Car's speed off the line, either skidding or not accelerating fast enough
4
7%
Downforce still works on forcefield barriers/boundaries, so the car keeps driving on them
6
10%
The fade-out time after using a pickup
2
3%
Getting multiple of the same pickup in a row
5
8%
Mines don't affect cars enough
1
2%
Mines affect cars too much
1
2%
The camera auto-direction code that points the down the track
0
No votes
The camera behavior when a car crashes or comes up close to objects
5
8%
Vehicle braking efficiency
4
7%
 
Total votes: 60

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POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Chris_CE » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:51 am

After making your choices, feel free to comment below as to why you made them

Try to keep your comments brief and to the point, as I have very limited time to read the forums ;)

Thanks!
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Kerake » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:26 pm

You can only mark one, but from that list, there are 3 that I personally am a bit uncomfortable (in order):
- "When deploying missiles, they hit the environment right away instead of going towards their target": The problem for me is that it makes the missiles useful just in specific conditions, which isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't feel right to launch a missile to a target that is in front of you, just to get it crash to the ground because a bump or something like that.
- "The EMP in how it lifts cars off the ground a bit": I've crashed more than once because of that push, which doesn't feel right, since it's just an EMP to block the electronics of the cars.
- "Mines don't affect cars enough": This one is relative. If the cars are very packed, the mines are really effective, but if they are alone, they don't make practically effect (at least in my opinion).

But this things don't ruin the gameplay experience for me, so I'm okay if they don't change :)

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:25 pm

This being an arcade game, a very overpowered brakes compared to a simulator approach are a must, due to the... exaggerated speeds that come with an arcade racer. But I can pretty much outbrake the cars here in any simcade and almost all simulators. Especially on the lower speeds. Even better, at around 100km/h, handbrake works better than normal brakes. Annoys me quite a bit tbh, especially when coupled with all the other issues, be it physics related or not.

And naturally the pickups. If you're first, 8 mines in a row may not be such a bad thing. But when you're 2nd or lower, those really just drop you down the order, since you can't fight at all. That is an extreme situation but it did happen. And 3 of the same in a row is more common than one would want.

There are quite few that I would also point out, generally most of that list would go here xD But the next two most annoying would be off the line traction and EMP.
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Broscar » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:46 pm

I feel that limiting the poll to 2 choices per users is a bad decision. I know your intention is to make a concise list of priorities, but I can guarantee that everyone has more than 2 options to tick.

Yay, text! Chris is gonna hate me :'p

The missiles requiring deployment time is a relic of Rollcage. Does it work in GRIP though?
I believe it doesn't and it would benefit the game if the deployment time was significantly shortened, or if missiles were shot straight out the front so that they don't hit overhangs as much anymore.
With the current track design it's already a recurring occurrence that players have to hold a missile for up to 10 seconds despite having an opponent right in front of them. This will only get worse with crazier track designs.

Regarding the current implementation of the EMP, I'll just loosely quote what I dumped on a Skype chat:
Broscar: The problem with EMP is that it's not as (visually) appealing as timewarp.
Broscar: Got hit by a missile? Here's a fancy explosion and the prospect of having to recover quickly to regain your position (challenging the player).
Broscar: Got hit by a timewarp? Enjoy the slow-ass destruction and cars magically standing near still in mid-air.
Broscar: Got hit by an EMP? Your car slows down to a crawl for 8 seconds. Had the misfortune of someone sending a missile after your ass just before the EMP activated? glhf shield deactivated and you just have to helplessly sit there, waiting until it finally hits you.
OnLY: the current EMP just adds so much downtime to the game where barely anything happens
Broscar: Exactly.
It takes control away from the player. It's not visually interesting. It doesn't do anything exciting; it just slows you down for a long ass time. It's unavoidable.
This hacked-together version to substitute as some sort of ugly catchup implementation is trash and needs to be redesigned.

The cars are slow to accelerate. This helps keeps them in check and prevents the 'infinite tumbling' problem many inexperienced players encountered in Rollcage, as well as adding to the perceived weight of the vehicles, but it also has a very drastic impact on game balance and perceived game speed.
Missiles and bad landings punish the player significantly more at this stage, further exaggerating the spread racers issue. If it takes too long to actively participate in a race again after such an event, then the game is boring/frustrating and discourages the combat part of futuristic combat racing.
It doesn't have to match Rollcage's ridiculous(ly glorious) neo-mode, but I do feel that this relatively slow acceleration harms the game.

This downforce on barriers problem mentioned in the polls is a two-part problem. This is probably result of my earlier complaint.
The barriers are completely vertical, making it difficult to return your car to a horizontal position when you stick to 'em in a bad turn.
I feel that blaming this on downforce does injustice to the problem and the impact it has on the game. The barriers line the outside curve of a corner, thus centrifugal force will always force the car onto them. If you try to mitigate that with code by bouncing cars off of the barriers, it could put the player in an even worse position to recover from. I also feel that it doesn't benefit a game centered around the mechanic of driving on walls.
Having the barriers curve at the bottom, thus allowing players to recover to a horizontal plane by themselves, is a solid mechanic often used in the track design of Rollcage. You could also place the barriers diagonally, though the current driving physics dislike that.
Alternatively, this might be a completely moot point once the cars behave better/braking is made stronger/the turn radius of cars is decreased or if a bouncing off implementation actually works out.
As of right, this is one issue that can be put low on the list of priorities, but it's one that has to be addressed sometime in the future. Either way, it's something to keep in mind with the design of future tracks; the barriers in their current implementation are not an adequate solution for tight corners following high speed sections.

The fade-out time after using a pickup can be shortened a bit. It shouldn't be instant, but this dreadfully slow fade-out doesn't fit in a fast racer. Every little bit for perceived speed helps.

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Tathendal » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:35 pm

I like that missiles take a while and crash into terrain, if they are made better they could easily become OP and spammable since you don't have to wait for the ideal moment to fire. Other choice could be that they take longer to lock-on

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby TheOnLY » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:27 am

Broscar wrote:I feel that limiting the poll to 2 choices per users is a bad decision. I know your intention is to make a concise list of priorities, but I can guarantee that everyone has more than 2 options to tick.

Yeah i would have ticked 3 , but because I couldn't I left Car's speed off the line, either skidding or not accelerating fast enough unticked (beacause i dont crash much and i always keep a turbo to avoid it)
It makes the gameplay very slow once you crash i think the boost start acceleration would be nice as a normal acceleration.


Broscar wrote:
The barriers are completely vertical, making it difficult to return your car to a horizontal position when you stick to 'em in a bad turn.
I feel that blaming this on downforce does injustice to the problem and the impact it has on the game.

Well, I complained about it, because downforce also works on the barriers that surround the track (not only the object ones) that stop you from leaving the track, so you can stick to the ceiling for example. same happened with the long jump on yuri, where the car would magically fly to the right when you got to close to the barrier.

Broscar wrote:Regarding the current implementation of the EMP, I'll just loosely quote what I dumped on a Skype chat:
Broscar: The problem with EMP is that it's not as (visually) appealing as timewarp.
Broscar: Got hit by a missile? Here's a fancy explosion and the prospect of having to recover quickly to regain your position (challenging the player).
Broscar: Got hit by a timewarp? Enjoy the slow-ass destruction and cars magically standing near still in mid-air.
Broscar: Got hit by an EMP? Your car slows down to a crawl for 8 seconds. Had the misfortune of someone sending a missile after your ass just before the EMP activated? glhf shield deactivated and you just have to helplessly sit there, waiting until it finally hits you.
OnLY: the current EMP just adds so much downtime to the game where barely anything happens
Broscar: Exactly.
It takes control away from the player. It's not visually interesting. It doesn't do anything exciting; it just slows you down for a long ass time. It's unavoidable.
This hacked-together version to substitute as some sort of ugly catchup implementation is trash and needs to be redesigned.


I still stand behind by proposal of having the EMP lock up the tyres like the handbrake does to reduce the downtime but keep the effectiveness of the EMP.
I had to test if it would be too hard to control, so I actually wrote a program that would use the handbrake in random intervals (25 to 40 seconds) for a random amount of time (2 to 4 seconds).
It is very contollable. It slows down car more than the current EMP in a shorter time and even if you spin, you'll usually end up in a 45° angle to where you want to go, at least if you countersteer.

  • + same effectiveness in a lot shorter duration (because the car actively brakes)
  • + creates a sense of danger as takes away some maneuverability (sliding) so the player has to countersteer
  • + timeloss can be reduced by precise smooth steering, if you steer to much you will slide sideways (so skill is skill involved)
  • + small effect on the back of the pack, initialises a drift at worst (handbrake doesn't immediately lock up the wheels)
  • - probably harder to balance, because shorter time
  • - the effect is reduced by flying (which would be taking a risk though)
  • - Speed can be lowered to 0 by high times easily

Last thing wouldn't be too much of a problem though if the cars acceleration from a standstill would be increased

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby The Sudden Silent » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:12 am

really hope we get something fixes on EMP POWER UPS i really hate that all enemys spamming that every 10 second.
My largest wish on before xmas can you balance it?

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Chris_CE » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:27 pm

Responded in orange

Ryu Makkuro wrote:This being an arcade game, a very overpowered brakes compared to a simulator approach are a must, due to the... exaggerated speeds that come with an arcade racer. But I can pretty much outbrake the cars here in any simcade and almost all simulators. Especially on the lower speeds. Even better, at around 100km/h, handbrake works better than normal brakes. Annoys me quite a bit tbh, especially when coupled with all the other issues, be it physics related or not.

I did notice myself recently that braking took a long time. That said, Rob is working on a proper drivetrain and friction model for the cars. I can see there being improvements in general after that, not just to braking



Broscar wrote:I feel that limiting the poll to 2 choices per users is a bad decision. I know your intention is to make a concise list of priorities, but I can guarantee that everyone has more than 2 options to tick.

Yeah, but I can take the entries off of the poll that have been addressed and have people vote again.

Yay, text! Chris is gonna hate me :'p

yes

The missiles requiring deployment time is a relic of Rollcage. Does it work in GRIP though?
I believe it doesn't and it would benefit the game if the deployment time was significantly shortened, or if missiles were shot straight out the front so that they don't hit overhangs as much anymore.
With the current track design it's already a recurring occurrence that players have to hold a missile for up to 10 seconds despite having an opponent right in front of them. This will only get worse with crazier track designs.

Fully agree that missile deployment time needs to be cut. I've wanted this for a while now

Regarding the current implementation of the EMP, I'll just loosely quote what I dumped on a Skype chat:
Broscar: The problem with EMP is that it's not as (visually) appealing as timewarp.
Broscar: Got hit by a missile? Here's a fancy explosion and the prospect of having to recover quickly to regain your position (challenging the player).
Broscar: Got hit by a timewarp? Enjoy the slow-ass destruction and cars magically standing near still in mid-air.
Broscar: Got hit by an EMP? Your car slows down to a crawl for 8 seconds. Had the misfortune of someone sending a missile after your ass just before the EMP activated? glhf shield deactivated and you just have to helplessly sit there, waiting until it finally hits you.
OnLY: the current EMP just adds so much downtime to the game where barely anything happens
Broscar: Exactly.
It takes control away from the player. It's not visually interesting. It doesn't do anything exciting; it just slows you down for a long ass time. It's unavoidable.
This hacked-together version to substitute as some sort of ugly catchup implementation is trash and needs to be redesigned.

Agree here as well, the EMP is pretty lame. Time Warp is either not possible, or a giant pain in the ass though, from what I've been told. The EMP needs a cooler effect (the current ones have always been placeholder), and it needs to be less of an annoyance.

I think this was mentioned as an idea for another power-up, but what if instead of slowing you down, the EMP instead switched the inputs for left and right steering, making it so that with skill, players can avoid being affected apart from having their shield disabled.


The cars are slow to accelerate. This helps keeps them in check and prevents the 'infinite tumbling' problem many inexperienced players encountered in Rollcage, as well as adding to the perceived weight of the vehicles, but it also has a very drastic impact on game balance and perceived game speed.
Missiles and bad landings punish the player significantly more at this stage, further exaggerating the spread racers issue. If it takes too long to actively participate in a race again after such an event, then the game is boring/frustrating and discourages the combat part of futuristic combat racing.
It doesn't have to match Rollcage's ridiculous(ly glorious) neo-mode, but I do feel that this relatively slow acceleration harms the game.

I'll probably start another poll regarding general car acceleration, and see just how many players don't like it currently, and how much they'd like to see it changed

This downforce on barriers problem mentioned in the polls is a two-part problem. This is probably result of my earlier complaint.
The barriers are completely vertical, making it difficult to return your car to a horizontal position when you stick to 'em in a bad turn.
I feel that blaming this on downforce does injustice to the problem and the impact it has on the game. The barriers line the outside curve of a corner, thus centrifugal force will always force the car onto them. If you try to mitigate that with code by bouncing cars off of the barriers, it could put the player in an even worse position to recover from. I also feel that it doesn't benefit a game centered around the mechanic of driving on walls.
Having the barriers curve at the bottom, thus allowing players to recover to a horizontal plane by themselves, is a solid mechanic often used in the track design of Rollcage. You could also place the barriers diagonally, though the current driving physics dislike that.
Alternatively, this might be a completely moot point once the cars behave better/braking is made stronger/the turn radius of cars is decreased or if a bouncing off implementation actually works out.
As of right, this is one issue that can be put low on the list of priorities, but it's one that has to be addressed sometime in the future. Either way, it's something to keep in mind with the design of future tracks; the barriers in their current implementation are not an adequate solution for tight corners following high speed sections.

There is already code that pushes the player off of the barriers. Been there since the 2nd patch after the newer forcefields were introduced. Maybe it's not working due to the UE 4.12 conversion. Either way, physics have been improved for this next update. Let's see how often barriers are ridden afterwards

The fade-out time after using a pickup can be shortened a bit. It shouldn't be instant, but this dreadfully slow fade-out doesn't fit in a fast racer. Every little bit for perceived speed helps.

Agreed
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Chris_CE » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:34 pm

TheOnLY wrote:I still stand behind by proposal of having the EMP lock up the tyres like the handbrake does to reduce the downtime but keep the effectiveness of the EMP.
I had to test if it would be too hard to control, so I actually wrote a program that would use the handbrake in random intervals (25 to 40 seconds) for a random amount of time (2 to 4 seconds).
It is very contollable. It slows down car more than the current EMP in a shorter time and even if you spin, you'll usually end up in a 45° angle to where you want to go, at least if you countersteer.

  • + same effectiveness in a lot shorter duration (because the car actively brakes)
  • + creates a sense of danger as takes away some maneuverability (sliding) so the player has to countersteer
  • + timeloss can be reduced by precise smooth steering, if you steer to much you will slide sideways (so skill is skill involved)
  • + small effect on the back of the pack, initialises a drift at worst (handbrake doesn't immediately lock up the wheels)
  • - probably harder to balance, because shorter time
  • - the effect is reduced by flying (which would be taking a risk though)
  • - Speed can be lowered to 0 by high times easily

Last thing wouldn't be too much of a problem though if the cars acceleration from a standstill would be increased

I can see locking the tires being far more frustrating than the current implementation. I just can't see the car being controllable whatsoever, at least with the way the cars brake in GRIP. Maybe once Rob's done more work on the physics, we can revisit the idea.

Also see: what I wrote above to Broscar in response to his EMP rant
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Chris_CE wrote:Responded in orange

Just wanted to point out that's bright red. Yes I know, I'll walk myself to the door.
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Clean&Clear » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:18 am

There is one thing that has been in the game for quite some time now, and that's the little bouncing the cars do when changing gears. It's most noticable in the beginning of the race when cars are going slow on a flat surface, and I find it to be most apparent with dreadnaught. I'm not sure if it's a feature or not, but I find it to be quite annoying, it feels like the car brakes for a split second when changing gear. It doesn't really matter too much when you're going straight, but when it happens in a curve, even the small bounce can throw you off.

Hopefully someone can make it clear to me whether it's a feature or not :)

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Chris_CE » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:06 pm

Feature

It's actually just an animation, so the physics are not affected at all. It shouldn't affect how you're turning.

I think it looks great and gives the backfire more of a punch. Anyone else find it annoying? (not that we'll change it :P )
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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby twisted » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Chris_CE wrote:Feature

It's actually just an animation, so the physics are not affected at all. It shouldn't affect how you're turning.

I think it looks great and gives the backfire more of a punch. Anyone else find it annoying? (not that we'll change it :P )


Certainly not, I think it just add more to the realism and/or it's cool looking!

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Clean&Clear » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:33 pm

Thanks for the reply, I guess it's time to stop blaming it for screwing up my turns and get used to it then. :D

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Re: POLL: Most annoying/frustrating non-physics/collision related issues in the game

Postby Chris_CE » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:42 pm

;)
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