POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

A place where the GRIP devs poll for feedback on various topics.

Please stay on topic in each poll's corresponding thread

What's your opinion on the vehicles' acceleration off the line, and speed recovering from crashes?

It's fine - I like a little bit of sim in my rocket powered tank car game
10
23%
Could be a bit faster - The cars are heavy so they shouldn't fly off the line, but right now they're kinda slow
15
35%
Needs to be twice as quick - Taking too long to get out of the starting grid and to recover from crashes is annoying
15
35%
Boost them as much as possible - The slow start and slow recovery makes me not want to play the game sometimes
3
7%
 
Total votes: 43

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POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Chris_CE » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:06 pm

Please review the poll options and vote.

Remember though that GRIP is a spiritual successor to rollcage, but has its own identity as well. It will never be as arcade-y and the cars will always have less ability to accelerate than those in RC.

That said, I've seen a lot of talk over the past year about the time it takes a vehicle to start moving at a decent speed, which is why I figured a poll about it would be a good idea.

I agree myself that the cars are kind of sluggish. Can be frustrating after a crash.

EDIT: keep in mind I am talking about overall acceleration of the cars in general, not about boost starts. Boost starts would need testing once vehicle performance is determined
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Im going with twice as fast but voted on as much as possible. Although As much as possible could be a "MyNameIsNeo" mode
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Tathendal » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:23 pm

Maybe a tad bit faster. But not too much. As you said, these aren't RC cars, we need to feel the mass. It would feel unnatural if it took 2 secs to accelerate to 500 kmph. Also, making the cars accelerate too fast would make crashing to have less weight, thus reducing the "driving on the edge" -feeling since you would know that you take only 2 secs to recover. But yeah, the acceleration could be just a tad bit faster!

edit. Though I am all in for mynameisNeo thing as WROB3L referred ;) But that would be a different thing

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby KazzyMac » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:33 pm

I'm going to be honest and say that I voted for the third option (double the start/acceleration speed). However, I did that because I couldn't choose between options two and three; I fear that doubling the speed may be too much, but just slightly increasing it may not be enough. I'm erring on the side of caution as a result.


There are a few other things as well that I've thought of that could be considered along with this?;

1) At least to an extent, should all the cars have comparable acceleration from a standstill? The difference between the Cyclone and Dreadnought from a standstill is probably too great, yet I understand the cyclone is supposed to have much higher acceleration.

This just makes starting behind a dreadnought frustrating, because there isn't room to pass them even if they get a boost start as well because of how much different their acceleration is (even under a boost start!), so at least until, say, 120km/h, 150, 180, what if the cars had similar (not identical) acceleration, and then after that the acceleration tapered off so that the dread would still take longer to get up to speed than a cyclone, but from a standstill (read: race start or recovery) it'd get going quicker? It's a thought and could at the least play into making a recovery easier overall.


2) I know that the start speed of the cars is slower than the mid-race recovery speed, so I think a good suggestion is that the start speed needs to be increased more than mid-race recovery speed is. Maybe as a side-effect you could make 'whiffing' the boost start more of a punishment, because right now there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between hitting the gas too early and whiffing it, hitting it too late and starting normally, and just holding the gas down all the way through the countdown without even trying to time it.


3) This also leads into the side-comment that I feel the starting gate could be a little wider, because as it is, starting 10th it's pretty much impossible to get past the AI up in front that fail to get going properly. I know a balance needs to be struck here, though, so this is just more a suggestion about how much it could be changed and if there are any other ways to make a boost start in 10th actually beneficial instead of luck (i.e. stretching out the grid a little, backing the cars out from the start line a little, etc)


4) Yes, I know you said this wasn't about boost starts, but those are some suggestions for that anyway since there's some relation. :/
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:36 pm

Tathendal wrote:Maybe a tad bit faster. But not too much. As you said, these aren't RC cars, we need to feel the mass. It would feel unnatural if it took 2 secs to accelerate to 500 kmph. Also, making the cars accelerate too fast would make crashing to have less weight, thus reducing the "driving on the edge" -feeling since you would know that you take only 2 secs to recover. But yeah, the acceleration could be just a tad bit faster!

edit. Though I am all in for mynameisNeo thing as WROB3L referred ;) But that would be a different thing



But but but.... Rollcage ;C Rollcage had acceleration like that ;C

But for real, Its a futuristic racing game. Every futuristic racing game is fast af. Futuristic doesnt mean that everything has to be realistic you feel me?
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Broscar » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:54 pm

I have no interest in realism. We're driving tanks on the ceiling of tunnels located on fictional planets. Wheelspin for wheelspin sake is a flawed reasoning.
Making the cars slow to recover from crashes is a frustrating experience for both veterans and newbies, and harms gameplay. It doesn't have to be like neo-mode from Rollcage, this is it's own game, but I'm certain that Wrob3l's video has made it painfully obvious for both Chris and others that the current state of affairs is not in GRIP's favour.
Rollcage is an immediate punch to the stomach. You're in a race, not 3 seconds from leaving the starting line. Meanwhile, GRIP starts off slow and clumsy and starts off slow and clumsy again with every single crash/reset, further compounded by the (as of now) inevitable collision glitches.

You want this to be an intense racing game that gets the heart pumping or some faux realistic driving game?

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Queadah » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:51 pm

I'm glad I'm with the others here on what we believe would best suit GRIP:
  • Overall feeling, I'll paraphrase Broscar, accel needs a serious kick in the crotch!
  • WROB3L's compare vid also made me wonder... absolutely.
  • +1 @Kmac: boost start is the one that should be massively pronounced imo, and possibly the same for all class (sry, can't dissociate it from that talk either)
  • (way) less kick on recovery accel and, only there, make it class/car dependent (in accordance with accel car stats already in existence), which doesn't sacrifice semi-realism/class identity/doesn't level all driving styles
With those nuances, 'voted 3

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby TheOnLY » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:47 pm

Even tough i voted for "Could be a bit faster - The cars are heavy so they shouldn't fly off the line, but right now they're kinda slow" i was also torn between the two option like K.Mac.
To me the range 0-150km/h is the part where it feels very slow, everything else is ok. I think the current boost start would be a nice normal acceleration, because being a sitting duck is where the frustration comes from.

But making them launch like rockets will take away the feeling of weight and also remove the incentive to drive clean.

I also think the starting gate needs to be widened or it could have two floors or even cars starting on the ceiling.

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Tathendal » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:48 pm

WROB3L wrote:But for real, Its a futuristic racing game. Every futuristic racing game is fast af. Futuristic doesnt mean that everything has to be realistic you feel me?


If you notice, I didn't use the word realism in any form, because I don't like to use that word at all when it comes to any video game.;) Best rule is "the rule of fun", and I give zero phuks about realism in any game, as long as the game is fun and believable. By this I mean that it is constistent with it's universe and lore. For example, if Geralt of Rivia would be able to open time portal and grab some guns from the future some people might say "so what, it is a game and it doesn't aim to be realistic anyway?" but it still would bother me (and probably the majority:D) because it is not believable or natural in that context. (sorry about the crappy example but couldn't think of better one, I really hope that you get my point though)

Now, I don't consider or want GRIP to be realistic in any meaning, but I like about it that it is believable. This may sound stupid since I probably can't explain fully what I mean, but in this context it means that I like how the massive vehicle acts in believable way (once more, doesn't need to be realistic and how it even could be since we are racing with cars that doesn't exist in made-up planets), and in my mind this is very different than realistic. If the acceleration would be similar (as fast) as in RC, it MIGHT not feel natural (in the game's own context).

ANYWAYS, reading all you guys' posts and watching that comparison video (and actually playing RC yesterday for a long time) made me think that maybe it actually would benefit the game that the acceleration would be faster. We'd had to see how it would feel in-game.

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Tathendal wrote:
WROB3L wrote:But for real, Its a futuristic racing game. Every futuristic racing game is fast af. Futuristic doesnt mean that everything has to be realistic you feel me?


If you notice, I didn't use the word realism in any form, because I don't like to use that word at all when it comes to any video game.;) Best rule is "the rule of fun", and I give zero phuks about realism in any game, as long as the game is fun and believable. By this I mean that it is constistent with it's universe and lore. For example, if Geralt of Rivia would be able to open time portal and grab some guns from the future some people might say "so what, it is a game and it doesn't aim to be realistic anyway?" but it still would bother me (and probably the majority:D) because it is not believable or natural in that context. (sorry about the crappy example but couldn't think of better one, I really hope that you get my point though)

Now, I don't consider or want GRIP to be realistic in any meaning, but I like about it that it is believable. This may sound stupid since I probably can't explain fully what I mean, but in this context it means that I like how the massive vehicle acts in believable way (once more, doesn't need to be realistic and how it even could be since we are racing with cars that doesn't exist in made-up planets), and in my mind this is very different than realistic. If the acceleration would be similar (as fast) as in RC, it MIGHT not feel natural (in the game's own context).

ANYWAYS, reading all you guys' posts and watching that comparison video (and actually playing RC yesterday for a long time) made me think that maybe it actually would benefit the game that the acceleration would be faster. We'd had to see how it would feel in-game.


Point taken :D I`m trying to think of any way to make the speed from rollcage believable... I guess the destroyable walls could slow you tremendously, or something like that. On top of that the body of the vehicles could move (by that i mean lean to the opposite side) more because of the g-forces?
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Ryu Makkuro » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:21 pm

First of all... bit of sim? What are you on about? What "simulator" have you played? A super light rally cars, with very short gear boxes, no electronical aids (they are banned in WRC and WRX), insane amount of torque and a lot of horsepower for the weight, and they have little to no wheel spin off the line. On gravel. That's been the case for... over 30 years now. There is nothing even remotely realistic/sim like about the wheelspin at the launch in this game at all. NOTHING.

In case for the disbelievers, here are two videos that should prove my point:
- 600BHP and ludicrous amount of torque in RX Supercars (1200kg in weight), they take 1.8s to get to 100km/h: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8bn6OGi5kA
- One of the first AWD cars in rally ever, the famous Group B, with around 600BHP, under 1000kg and essentially primevial suspension and tires... guess what? Yep, launches like a missile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDRkHXMHqFo

Now we're talking here about cars that weigh more than a building, have jet power along the conventional combustion engines (jet power pushes, it doesn't spin the wheels), have AWD and have tires bigger than the car itself. There doesn't exist a situation in real life where cars such as those would have any traction issues whatsoever. Let alone in an arcade game.
For those not into technical terms, traction is what makes the tires push the car forward (some like to call it "forward grip") instead of those tires spinning pointlessly and the car stuck in place. In other words lack of traction means the wheels start to spin instead of pushing the car forward.

Another thing is the general acceleration and performance of cars. Currently it comes down to which one has the highest top speed, since the high speed acceleration on them is so strong. Add to that the fact that all the cars lose pretty much the same amount of speed while cornering and you end up with a situation where a tank will do most corners at a speed higher than the speeder top speed. Now couple that with the completely unrealistic wheel spin and rather poor low speed acceleration and... you end up in a situation where you're penalised like hell for getting screwed up and being unable to get back to the race quickly, while no one is punished for small mistakes at higher speeds because... acceleration does it for them. This as some may have noticed helps the 1st player completely run away, since middle ground is most likely to screw each other out, rather than the leader trying to drive as fast as possible.

In other words, currently the cars performance leads to a highly unbalanced and unfair situation that tries to balance it by using pickups which just plain out slow you down for no reason at all, regardless where you are and what you do. Highly artificial gameplay. What should happen is the cars performance on its own balances the gameplay out while pickups provide another layer of balancing, not trying to fix what is already broken.

My propositions are as follows:
- completely remove the wheel spin (obviously)
- reduce the high speed acceleration by quite a friggin lot (cars aren't aerodynamical, they weigh more than a building aka bad high speed acceleration)
- boost the low-speed acceleration (no traction issues, gazillions of horsepower, good low-speed is a must)
- adjust the "torque" of the cars, so they don't lose as much speed in cornering
- *OPTIONAL* the tank should not slow down at all while cornering, but to have a stable yet very slow acceleration, so it slows ONLY when you want to slow down (or crash straight into a wall). This should make it so that tank users will be looking for a path that isn't the shortest but one that doesn't make them slow down. Should provide a very skillful type of car and add into their... wait for it... identity :P

Those changes should change the gameplay more into "easy to learn, hard to master" since you won't be penalised for messing up as much, it will be very easy and quick to get back into the "fray" but it will be difficult to maintain super speed to keep ahead of others, which should naturally add to the challange aka the "hard to master" part.


PS. Forget about the Speedbowl for balance, that's just an oval where only top speed matters, so no amount of balancing will ever make it so the higher top speed car not having the edge there. Same can apply to Transport ever since it became the "glorified speedbowl". In other words, tracks that are literally just an oval with no real turning, just put an "Easy" on them and forget about them when it comes to car balance.
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:11 pm

Ryu Makkuro wrote:WALL OF TEXT


Soooo youre basically saying that Rollcage is more of a simulator than GRIP? xD


Oh and the handbrake should lock the wheels a LOT earlier. *Cough*driftingwouldbepossible*cough
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Demi » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:17 pm

I'm all for faster acceleration, but i'd like this to still be possible.

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Queadah » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:48 am

TheOnLY wrote:I also think the starting gate needs to be widened or it could have two floors or even cars starting on the ceiling.

This! I'm opening a thread about that...

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby twisted » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:58 am

I'm perfectly fine with the acceleration and speed of the vehicles. The only thing I dislike a little is the slow, sluggish drifting starts!

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby zitapis » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:14 am

The game doesnt need to make you frustrated that much. Blur for example gives you much less punishment on such occasions and it really makes it fun this way.

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:55 am



7:20
That`s why this game has to be as fast as possible........
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby atv_123 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:55 pm

Well... the game doesn't have to be a simulator, but I agree that I think it should, at the very least be believable. Now, just how fast can one of these cars accelerate realistically? That is a great question. In reality we have nothing of the sort to compare this too (at all) but that's not going to stop me from trying ;)

The closest thing that I can come up with for comparison to real life is an M1 Abrams tank... purely because it's a tank, powered by a turbine, and shaped like a brick. Sounds like an "OK" start.

Specs:
Weight = 65 short tons (for the heavy one), 130,000lbs, or 59,000kg
Power = 1500HP
and literally nothing else really matters... but let's get rid of those tracks and use wheels for efficiency sake.

65 tons sounds about right for one of these cars so that's a pretty good comparison. However, this thing has a top speed of only 45mph... that's not a lot (yes I know it's governed, but still) so lets see what it would take to really get this thing humming at 400KPH shall we?

Negating rolling resistance and wind resistance and just traction in general, we would like to see 400KPH in about 3 seconds am I right?

To do that madness (according to a silly little calculator I found on the internet) we would need:

Capture.PNG
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Damn... thats a lot of power... a LOT of power. 163,000 lot-o-power... Well... how do we get ourselves out of this pickle... I am still gonna try anyways, but after seeing that number by the end of this post I might just be like "make go fast happen" and just leave it at that...

Alright, well, modern drag cars have the ability to make 10,000HP out of just an 8.2L V8. Thats pretty darn good going.

(Picture wont attach because it's being annoying.)

That means that (according to my engine calculator) if we were to run it on normal pump gas... we would have to be running over 110psi of boost. Of course they don't run these things on normal pump gas for those reasons, but since I don't feel like doing the math right now, we shall move on... these are our stats... now let's make the engine bigger.

Upping the displacement and number of cylinders to the V12 out of a P51 Mustang takes us to a 27L V12 at 21,600HP
Well these things are all engine and armor anyways right? Let's go bigger!

Upping it to a GE 7FDL engine out of a train (I know its a diesel and I am doing gas calculations... go away) we can get a hefty 80,000HP and 188,000lb/ft of torque... Now that's an engine... and it also fits in our weight limit only weighing in at 40,000lbs! (I know... that's like... more than half the car... but it's a race car right? So who cares. Also, hilariously, the blower would be sucking as much as 5,500HP away just to run at this state!)

Now, as I proposed in one of the other threads, I think these cars are like IC engine and Jet engine hybrids. This would mean that the engine would help turn a fan that would then have even MORE fuel dumped into the combustion chamber of the jet producing tons of thrust on top of what the engine is already doing! So let's go find a fast heavy jet.

The internet tells me that the F18-E has a dry weight of 13,400kg and a thrust of 197.4kN of combined thrust from two G.E. F414-GE-400 jet engines. Cool. What's that tell us.

Well... If we use 4 of these jets... we can propel a very decent portion of the vehicle up to 400 in that time.

(Picture wont attach because it's being annoying again.)

We are now making near our acceleration requirements. I don't feel like doing the math right now, but with some slightly bigger jets, we could get the acceleration to within our requirements. Also weirdly enough. With the wheels only able to provide up to 2.2G's of Acceleration (in earth's gravity on pavement... good old friction) the faster we go, and more downforce we generate, the more traction we have and the faster we can accelerate! So this could definitely be possible, especially if I would have been using afterburners (which I wasn't)
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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby Queadah » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:49 pm

<--- GRIP cars gibberish incoming. Rated X --->
Spoiler: show
I'm digging this. The figures about weight seem more coherent to me than some in other threads.
Admittedly, I can't see one of GRIP's car wheel under 1.5t (math would be needed here but yeah).

Times 4, that's 6t for the wheels alone... which is on the conservative side (to maximize efficiency, wheels ought to be designed as light as possible). So saying GRIP cars weight 10 tons seeing the armor involved seems weird to say the least

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Re: POLL: Let's talk about vehicle acceleration off the line and the ability to get back in the race

Postby WROB3L » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:49 pm

@atv_123............ can i have your brain plz?
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